(BUTTON) [1]Skip to Main Content
   CBC[2]Menu
   ____________________ (BUTTON) Search

Quick Links

     * [3]News
     * [4]Sports
     * [5]Radio
     * [6]Music
     * [7]Listen Live
     * [8]TV
     * [9]Watch

     * [10]CBC.ca HOME

     Discover CBC
     * [11]Comedy
     * [12]Arts
     * [13]Music
     * [14]Books
     * [15]Docs
     * [16]Life
     * [17]Parents
     * [18]Kids
     * [19]Kids News
     * [20]Indigenous
     * [21]Archives
     * [22]MyCBC

     [23]All Locals
     * [24]British Columbia
     * [25]Calgary
     * [26]Edmonton
     * [27]Saskatchewan
     * [28]Saskatoon
     * [29]Manitoba
     * [30]Thunder Bay
     * [31]Sudbury
     * [32]Windsor
     * [33]London
     * [34]Kitchener-Waterloo
     * [35]Hamilton
     * [36]Toronto
     * [37]Ottawa
     * [38]Montreal
     * [39]New Brunswick
     * [40]Prince Edward Island
     * [41]Nova Scotia
     * [42]Newfoundland & Labrador
     * [43]North



   My Local Settings

   [44]Ottawa
   (BUTTON) Changequickly access local content from your selected
   regionSelect a new default local region:
     * (*) British Columbia
     * ( ) Calgary
     * ( ) Edmonton
     * ( ) Saskatchewan
     * ( ) Saskatoon
     * ( ) Manitoba
     * ( ) Thunder Bay
     * ( ) Sudbury
     * ( ) Windsor
     * ( ) London
     * ( ) Kitchener-Waterloo
     * ( ) Hamilton
     * ( ) Toronto
     * ( ) Montreal
     * ( ) New Brunswick
     * ( ) Prince Edward Island
     * ( ) Nova Scotia
     * ( ) Newfoundland & Labrador
     * ( ) North

     [45]News

     * [46]Top Stories
     * [47]Local
     * [48]The National
     * [49]Opinion
     * [50]World
     * [51]Canada
     * [52]Politics
     * [53]Indigenous
     * [54]Business
     * [55]Health
     * [56]Entertainment
     * [57]Tech & Science
     * [58]CBC News Investigates
     * [59]Go Public
     * [60]Shows
     * [61]About CBC News

     [62]Sports

     * [63]Top Stories
     * [64]Scores
     * [65]NHL
     * [66]Olympic Sports
     * [67]Video
     * [68]Podcasts
     * [69]Player's Own Voice
     * [70]All Sports

     [71]Radio

     * [72]Top Stories
     * [73]All Shows
     * [74]Podcasts
     * [75]Schedules
     * [76]Frequency
     * [77]LISTEN LIVE

     [78]Music

     * [79]Read
     * [80]Watch
     * [81]Events
     * [82]Explore
     * [83]LISTEN LIVE
     * [84]CBC Music Playlists

     [85]TV

     * [86]Shows
     * [87]Schedule
     * [88]CBC Gem
     * [89]Shop

     More
     * [90]Shop
     * [91]Sitemap
     * [92]Help
     * [93]Contact
     * [94]Contests

   (BUTTON)

     * [95]COVID-19
     * [96]Local updates
     * [97]Live broadcast
     * [98]COVID-19 tracker
     * [99]Subscribe to newsletter

     *
     * [100]Top Stories
     * [101]All Shows
     * [102]Podcasts
     * [103]Schedules
     * [104]Frequency
     * [105]LISTEN LIVE

   Historian Yuval Noah Harari says we can choose what the world looks
   like when the pandemic is over

Social Sharing

   [106]The Current

Historian Yuval Noah Harari says we can choose what the world looks like when
the pandemic is over

   Author and historian Yuval Noah Harari speaks with The Current's Matt
   Galloway about how history will record the COVID-19 pandemic.

Social Sharing

'We'll be different, but it's not predetermined. It's up to us to decide,'
Harari says

   CBC Radio · Posted: Apr 01, 2020 5:44 PM ET | Last Updated: April 1
   Israeli author, historian and professor Yuval Noah Harari shared his
   thoughts on how the COVID-19 pandemic may shape our future. (Kristoff
   Van Accom/Belga/AFP/Getty Images)
   (BUTTON)
   comments
   Listen20:55

   [107]Read Story Transcript

   Historian Yuval Noah Harari says important choices will be made during
   this pandemic — and those choices will have huge implications for our
   societies.

   Harari is a professor at the University of Jerusalem and the author of
   21 Lessons for the 21st Century.

   Last month, Harari wrote a piece in [108]Financial Times about what the
   world will look like after the pandemic.

   Here is part of his conversation with [109]The Current's Matt Galloway.

   You've written that people are basically guinea pigs in some sort of
   social experiment that would have never been possible without this
   pandemic. What do you mean by that?

   We are now reluctantly, inevitably, conducting immense social
   experiments on billions of people.

   So it's things like moving entire universities online.

   In my university, they have been discussing doing some courses online
   for 20 years now, and they never did anything. And now, in one week,
   they move the entire university online because they had to.

   This is basically a huge experiment. Nobody knows what the outcome will
   be.

   Some things are working well. Other things are not working so well. But
   whatever the results, when this is over, we probably won't go back to
   where we were half a year ago. Things will change.

   You look at the universal basic income idea. So it's been going around
   for quite some time, but it wasn't implemented by any government — not
   on a large scale anyway. And now you see the U.S. government, a
   conservative Republican administration, basically adopting universal
   basic income, at least for the duration of the crisis.
     * [110]Send in the trolls: Canada braces for an online disinformation
       assault on COVID-19

     * [111]'Viruses don't carry passports': Why travel bans won't work to
       stop spread of COVID-19

   The results of this experiment will change the economic and social
   system maybe for years to come. I think, therefore, we should be very
   focused not just on the epidemic itself, but also on the political
   situation, because in the next month or two, politicians are going to
   make extremely important decisions allocating billions and billions of
   dollars [and] changing the basic rules of the job market, of the
   education system.

   Whatever comes after that — like if you're elected prime minister in
   2021 — it's like coming after the party is over and the only thing you
   have left to do is to wash the dirty dishes.

   The big decisions will be taken in the next one, two, three months and
   they will shape the world for, maybe, a decade or many decades.
   Dr. Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus says grim new milestones are about to be
   reached as the deadly pandemic pushes into almost every country. 2:56

   This idea of a pandemic fast forwarding the historical process is
   fascinating because, to your point, whether it's technology, whether
   it's the universal basic income or how we think of work, those
   decisions are being made and the rules are being rewritten as we go.

   How do you think we will look coming out of this?

   We'll be different, but it's not predetermined. It's up to us to
   decide.

   Again, we need to make decisions, but we shouldn't think that there is
   just one right answer.

   For instance, we need to decide between totalitarian surveillance and
   citizen empowerment.

   I hope we choose citizen empowerment, but I don't know.

   Has history shown you that that's possible in crises past?

   Certainly. You look at the two last big crises we faced of this kind —
   we had the Ebola crisis in 2014 and we had the global financial crisis
   of 2008.

   In both these cases, the international community cooperated and
   succeeded in preventing the worst outcome.

   Ebola was contained and the worst fears will never materialize because
   countries from all over the world sent help to the most affected
   countries in West Africa.

   And with the global financial crisis, even though it was very severe,
   again, the worst outcomes were prevented because the major economies —
   the leading countries — cooperated to formulate a global plan of
   action.

   We can do it again, but for this we need leadership and we'd need
   global solidarity. And so far, we haven't seen enough of it.
     * Analysis
       COVID-19 isn't just testing governments, it's testing citizens

     * [112]Canada keeps up push for UN Security Council seat during
       COVID-19 crisis

   You talked about the changes at your university and said that you think
   that they'll stick. There are a lot of people who are trying to figure
   out what teaching is going to look like from home. Those are changes
   that aren't just going to exist within this window that we're in right
   now?

   It's impossible to tell in advance.

   You know, universities suddenly discovered, "Hey, you can do that." And
   then they can make decisions like, "OK, so now we can hire a faculty in
   India and pay a tenth of what we pay Canadian academics and they can
   teach online."

   Or they can decide that overseas students can be accepted, but they
   don't actually have to come to Toronto, Vancouver. They can stay where
   they are and just take courses online.

   Personally, I think these two decisions would be wrong decisions,
   dangerous decisions. Certainly in terms of students, part of the
   experience of going to university is the community.

   When I went to Oxford, meeting the other students and going clubbing in
   London was at least as important as going to the classes. And I don't
   want to see it disappear, but it could happen.

   We have to be aware that this crisis could change the face of
   education, the job market, everything.
     __________________________________________________________________

   This Q&A has been edited for length and clarity.

   Written by Justin Chandler. Produced by Howard Goldenthal.

More from this episode

     * [113]Historian Yuval Noah Harari says we can choose what the world
       looks like when the pandemic is over
     * [114]Under The Influence host Terry O'Reilly on making a pandemic
       PSA
     * [115]Trumpets, window visits and virtual cards: How families are
       connecting with loved ones in nursing homes
     * [116]What would Jean-Luc Picard do about COVID-19? More than Trump
       and Boris, says Patrick Stewart
     * [117]Apr. 1, 2020 episode transcript
     * [118]FULL EPISODE: The Current for April 1, 2020

CBC Newsletters

   Add some “good” to your morning and evening.

   A variety of newsletters you'll love, delivered straight to you.
   [119]Sign up now

Comments

   To encourage thoughtful and respectful conversations, first and last
   names will appear with each submission to CBC/Radio-Canada's online
   communities (except in children and youth-oriented communities).
   Pseudonyms will no longer be permitted.

   By submitting a comment, you accept that CBC has the right to reproduce
   and publish that comment in whole or in part, in any manner CBC
   chooses. Please note that CBC does not endorse the opinions expressed
   in comments. Comments on this story are moderated according to our
   [120]Submission Guidelines. Comments are welcome while open. We reserve
   the right to close comments at any time.

Footer Links

My Account

     * [121]Profile
     * [122]CBC Gem
     * [123]Newsletters

Connect with CBC

     * [124]Facebook
     * [125]Twitter
     * [126]YouTube
     * [127]Instagram
     * [128]Mobile
     * [129]RSS
     * [130]Podcasts

Contact CBC

     * [131]Submit Feedback
     * [132]Help Centre

   Audience Relations, CBC
   P.O. Box 500 Station A
   Toronto, ON
   Canada, M5W 1E6

   Toll-free (Canada only):
   1-866-306-4636

   TTY/Teletype writer:
   1-866-220-6045

About CBC

     * [133]Corporate Info
     * [134]Sitemap
     * [135]Reuse & Permission
     * [136]Terms of Use
     * [137]Privacy
     * [138]Jobs
     * [139]Our Unions
     * [140]Independent Producers
     * [141]Political Ads Registry
     * [142]AdChoices

Services

     * [143]Ombudsman
     * [144]Public Appearances
     * [145]Commercial Services
     * [146]CBC Shop
     * [147]Doing Business with Us
     * [148]Renting Facilities

Accessibility

   It is a priority for CBC to create a website that is accessible to all
   Canadians including people with visual, hearing, motor and cognitive
   challenges.

   Closed Captioning and Described Video is available for many CBC shows
   offered on [149]CBC Gem.
     * [150]About CBC Accessibility
     * [151]Accessibility Feedback

     *
     * ©2020 CBC/Radio-Canada. All rights reserved.
     * [152]Visitez Radio-Canada.ca

References

   Visible links
   1. https://www.cbc.ca/radio/thecurrent/the-current-for-april-1-2020-1.5517314/historian-yuval-noah-harari-says-we-can-choose-what-the-world-looks-like-when-the-pandemic-is-over-1.5518091#content
   2. https://www.cbc.ca/sitemap
   3. https://www.cbc.ca/news
   4. https://www.cbc.ca/sports
   5. https://www.cbc.ca/radio
   6. https://www.cbc.ca/music
   7. https://www.cbc.ca/listen/
   8. https://www.cbc.ca/television
   9. https://watch.cbc.ca/
  10. https://www.cbc.ca/
  11. https://www.cbc.ca/comedy
  12. https://www.cbc.ca/arts
  13. https://www.cbc.ca/music
  14. https://www.cbc.ca/books
  15. https://www.cbc.ca/documentaries
  16. https://www.cbc.ca/life
  17. https://www.cbc.ca/parents/
  18. https://www.cbc.ca/kidscbc2/
  19. https://www.cbc.ca/kidsnews
  20. https://www.cbc.ca/news/indigenous
  21. https://www.cbc.ca/archives
  22. https://www.cbc.ca/mycbc
  23. https://www.cbc.ca/news/local
  24. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia
  25. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary
  26. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton
  27. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatchewan
  28. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatoon
  29. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba
  30. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/thunder-bay
  31. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/sudbury
  32. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/windsor
  33. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/london
  34. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/kitchener-waterloo
  35. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton
  36. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto
  37. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa
  38. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal
  39. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick
  40. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/prince-edward-island
  41. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia
  42. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador
  43. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north
  44. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa
  45. https://www.cbc.ca/news
  46. https://www.cbc.ca/news
  47. https://www.cbc.ca/news/local
  48. https://www.cbc.ca/news/thenational
  49. https://www.cbc.ca/news/opinion
  50. https://www.cbc.ca/news/world
  51. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada
  52. https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics
  53. https://www.cbc.ca/news/indigenous
  54. https://www.cbc.ca/news/business
  55. https://www.cbc.ca/news/health
  56. https://www.cbc.ca/news/entertainment
  57. https://www.cbc.ca/news/technology
  58. https://www.cbc.ca/news/investigates
  59. https://www.cbc.ca/news/gopublic
  60. https://www.cbc.ca/news/shows
  61. https://www.cbc.ca/news/about-cbc-news-1.1294364
  62. https://www.cbc.ca/sports
  63. https://www.cbc.ca/sports
  64. https://www.cbc.ca/sports/scores
  65. https://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/nhl
  66. https://www.cbc.ca/sports/olympics
  67. https://www.cbc.ca/sports/video
  68. https://www.cbc.ca/sports/podcasts
  69. https://www.cbc.ca/playersvoice/
  70. https://www.cbc.ca/sports/all
  71. https://www.cbc.ca/radio
  72. https://www.cbc.ca/radio
  73. https://www.cbc.ca/radio/shows
  74. https://www.cbc.ca/radio/podcasts
  75. https://www.cbc.ca/programguide/daily/today/cbc_radio_one
  76. https://www.cbc.ca/radio/frequency
  77. https://www.cbc.ca/listen/live/
  78. https://www.cbc.ca/music
  79. https://www.cbc.ca/music
  80. https://www.cbc.ca/music/watch
  81. https://www.cbc.ca/music/events
  82. https://www.cbc.ca/music/explore
  83. https://www.cbc.ca/listen
  84. https://www.cbc.ca/listen/cbc-music-playlists
  85. https://www.cbc.ca/television
  86. https://www.cbc.ca/tv/shows
  87. https://www.cbc.ca/programguide/daily/today/cbc_television
  88. https://watch.cbc.ca/
  89. http://www.cbcshop.ca/
  90. http://www.cbcshop.ca/
  91. https://www.cbc.ca/sitemap/
  92. https://cbchelp.cbc.ca/hc/en-us
  93. https://cbchelp.cbc.ca/
  94. http://www.cbc.ca/contests/
  95. https://www.cbc.ca/news/covid-19
  96. https://www.cbc.ca/news/local
  97. https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/1711321155969
  98. https://newsinteractives.cbc.ca/coronavirustracker/
  99. https://subscriptions.cbc.ca/listmanagement/forms/coronavirusbrief?cmp=feed-gen_coronavirusbrief_newsletter-subscribe
 100. https://www.cbc.ca/radio
 101. https://www.cbc.ca/radio/shows
 102. https://www.cbc.ca/radio/podcasts
 103. https://www.cbc.ca/programguide/daily/today/cbc_radio_one
 104. https://www.cbc.ca/radio/frequency
 105. https://www.cbc.ca/listen/live/
 106. https://www.cbc.ca/radio/thecurrent
 107. https://www.cbc.ca/radio/thecurrent/the-current-for-april-1-2020-1.5517314/apr-1-2020-episode-transcript-1.5518201
 108. https://www.ft.com/content/19d90308-6858-11ea-a3c9-1fe6fedcca75
 109. http://cbc.ca/thecurrent
 110. https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/covid-19-coronavirus-disinformation-trolls-1.5497805
 111. https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/covid19-travel-bans-1.5495919
 112. https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-continues-push-for-security-council-seat-1.5514252
 113. https://www.cbc.ca/radio/thecurrent/the-current-for-april-1-2020-1.5517314/historian-yuval-noah-harari-says-we-can-choose-what-the-world-looks-like-when-the-pandemic-is-over-1.5518091
 114. https://www.cbc.ca/radio/thecurrent/the-current-for-april-1-2020-1.5517314/under-the-influence-host-terry-o-reilly-on-making-a-pandemic-psa-1.5517426
 115. https://www.cbc.ca/radio/thecurrent/the-current-for-april-1-2020-1.5517314/trumpets-window-visits-and-virtual-cards-how-families-are-connecting-with-loved-ones-in-nursing-homes-1.5517425
 116. https://www.cbc.ca/radio/thecurrent/the-current-for-april-1-2020-1.5517314/what-would-jean-luc-picard-do-about-covid-19-more-than-trump-and-boris-says-patrick-stewart-1.5517422
 117. https://www.cbc.ca/radio/thecurrent/the-current-for-april-1-2020-1.5517314/apr-1-2020-episode-transcript-1.5518201
 118. https://www.cbc.ca/radio/thecurrent/the-current-for-april-1-2020-1.5517314
 119. https://subscriptions.cbc.ca/listmanagement?cmp=feed_generic_newsletter-subscribe
 120. https://www.cbc.ca/aboutcbc/discover/submissions.html
 121. https://www.cbc.ca/account/
 122. https://gem.cbc.ca/benefits/
 123. https://subscriptions.cbc.ca/listmanagement/
 124. https://www.facebook.com/cbc/
 125. https://twitter.com/cbc/
 126. https://www.youtube.com/user/CBCtv
 127. https://www.instagram.com/cbc/?hl=en
 128. https://cbchelp.cbc.ca/hc/en-ca/categories/115000249853-Help-with-CBC-Apps
 129. https://www.cbc.ca/rss/
 130. https://www.cbc.ca/radio/podcasts
 131. https://cbchelp.cbc.ca/hc/en-ca/requests/new
 132. https://cbchelp.cbc.ca/hc/en-ca
 133. https://cbc.radio-canada.ca/en
 134. https://www.cbc.ca/sitemap
 135. https://cbchelp.cbc.ca/hc/en-ca/sections/203864688-Using-or-licensing-CBC-content
 136. https://www.cbc.ca/aboutcbc/discover/termsofuse.html
 137. https://www.cbc.ca/aboutcbc/discover/privacy.html
 138. https://cbc.radio-canada.ca/en/working-with-us/jobs/
 139. https://cbc.radio-canada.ca/en/vision/unions-associations
 140. https://www.cbc.ca/ip
 141. https://cbc.radio-canada.ca/en/impact-and-accountability/regulatory/political-ads-registry
 142. https://youradchoices.ca/
 143. https://cbc.radio-canada.ca/en/ombudsman/
 144. https://www.cbc.ca/news/public-appearances-1.4969965
 145. https://cbc.radio-canada.ca/en/services/commercial-services/
 146. http://www.cbcshop.ca/
 147. https://cbc.radio-canada.ca/en/working-with-us/partners-and-suppliers/
 148. https://www.cbc.ca/productionfacilities/
 149. https://watch.cbc.ca/
 150. https://www.cbc.ca/accessibility/
 151. https://www.cbc.ca/accessibility/feedback/
 152. http://ici.radio-canada.ca/

   Hidden links:
 154. https://www.cbc.ca/
 155. https://www.cbc.ca/search
 156. https://www.cbc.ca/radio
 157. https://www.cbc.ca/radio
 158. https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/covid-19-coronavirus-pandemic-trudeau-1.5500915
 159. http://www.cbc.radio-canada.ca/