initial english version - radio-interview-2018 - absmagazine interview about bitreich and gopher transcription files
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HTML Author: Christian Kellermann <ckeen@pestilenz.org>
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2018 13:24:53 +0200
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+[intro music]
+
+Michael(M): Here's the ABS Magazin - "Arbeit, Bildung und Soziales"
+- Your magazine about social policies here on radio x the Frankfurt
+citizen radio.
+
+Nice to have you all here! Thanks for listening! We have got a new episode
+for you, exciting things from the realm of communication technology.
+We want to talk specifically about the internet... No, we do not want to
+talk about the internet, neither do we want to talk about the dark net
+today, but something even more obscure: Today will be about 'gopherspace'.
+
+'Gopher' is a protocol, which has been introduced a bit earlier than
+the world wide web. But it has faded a bit into obscurity. A protocol,
+which might have to be said, is the way how computers talk to each
+other, how they exchange their data. You may have heard about the HTTP
+protocol. You are using this when typing an URL into your brower. Or
+there is a protocol handling the exchange of E-Mails. And there's the
+'gopher' protocol. Which is interesting in particular as it is simple
+and similar to the web, such as: Gopher server provide text and provide
+links. What they do not provide are pictures, additional features,
+Javascript or other complicated things.
+
+This restriction providing test and links does also mean, that you can
+work very fast with it, pages do load super fast. And there are people
+saying that the web is too bloated, there's too much advertising, to
+much nick-nack. It is getting more and more difficult to get to the real
+information on a site. Under these circumstance it is to the point to
+have a closer look at the gopher protocol.
+
+We have talked to someone, who's knowledgable in this field. There
+is a group of people who will hold a conference soon, to discuss the
+future of the gopher protocol and how to build a real, interesting,
+alternative to the world wide web. But now we will have a little bit
+of music: Mrs. Beep with 'The spring is comming' a little bit of 8bit
+music. After that we will talk with Christoph Lohmann, who will tell us
+something about the gopher protocol.
+
+[...music cut out...]
+
+
+Yes, now we have Christop here. He is a bit of a computer nerd, a
+hobbyist, who is tinkering with software, hardware, programming and
+protocols -- everything that's computer related and how they communicate.
+
+M: Hello Christoph!
+
+Christoph(C): Greetings Michael, here's Christoph!
+
+M: I have read that you are running a project called 'bitreich'. This
+project is using some protocols that aren't known widely. But what's
+this project about?
+
+C: bitreich's goal si to create simple software. This includes simple
+protocols like gopher. Simple principles, software that's fun to use. Our
+goals are stated on the website or better the gopherhole.
+
+M: Yes...
+
+C: There are.. Well, we wanted to talk about gopher. It's about replacing
+big complex thingswith simple stuff which you can even implement yourself.
+
+M: Gopher does translate as 'Maulwurf' (german) right?
+
+C: Yes it does, it is derived from the gopher mascott of the MIT,
+a university in the US. Also it is a pun on 'to go for'.
+
+M: This protocol has existed for quite a long time now, probably earlier
+than the world wide web?
+
+C: It has been developed in 1991, where the goal has been to connect
+different databases at MIT with a hierarchical protocol. It has been
+surpassed by the web sadly, which has been picked up faster, to put
+it simply.
+
+M: How do the web and gopher differ?
+
+C: One has to differentiate between the data transport and display. In
+the web there's HTTP for transport, then HTML for displaying the web
+page in my browser. In gopher I have one protocol that already defines
+simple menus. I know exactly that an item is a link and what will happen,
+when I click on it. They are already defined in the protocol. Which
+means the structure is more strict. As opposed to the web.
+
+M: So like, when I am on a website often I have to relearn the navigation
+and where to find things...
+
+C: That's another issue on the web. There are even languages and
+mechanisms, that can hide this from you. And a 'link' nowadays does not
+mean 'go to this website' anymore. That's part of the problem. In gopher
+you have this simplified, there's a link pointing to somewhere and I
+just follow that. On the end of the link there may be another menu and
+so on forming a tree of information for me to browse.
+
+M: If I understood you correctly, the display of data in gopher is mostly
+text based?
+
+C: That's how it has been defined, yes. It's all about text. Images
+have been added to it, but back in the days there have been all these
+terminals with these old screens only capable of displaying text. But
+it's about text, it's about a simple way to exchange information. And
+that's pure text.
+
+M: Or two people talk to each other, they also can exchange ideas or
+information that way.
+
+C: Yeah, text is even more simple. If you take this further, there's for
+example linux, which listeners may have heard about. That's about how I
+can do text processing on the command line. With images you'll have to
+deal with more complex algorithms and that's not as easy to use.
+
+M: Hearing all this I think this is also about using simple programs
+that use less resources? If I transfer a text file it is probably much
+smaller than an Image or a video file.
+
+C: Yes, that's right. I can tell a story where I have needed this
+badly: In Bhutan in south asia, north of India, where it's all about
+the happyness of people, not like here… They have got a GSM Network
+only. There has been a blackout and there has been only this slow data
+network. But I have successfully retrieved my needed information via
+gopher. It does not need a lot of resources.
+
+M: So it is a protocol that's interesting for areas that are less
+developed or where the aren't so many resources available?
+
+C: Yes, gopher saves resources, but over all, since the web's problem is
+illustrated with youtube: Someone reads a text in a video which is served
+in HD and viewed on a 4k monitor. I could have sent out the text instead!
+
+M: So the approach is this: Here is a protocol and programs, allowing to
+transfer information efficiently and fast. Sometimes as much information
+as in a read out video. Is this a new trend?
+
+C: Gopher has been dormant for a long time, since the web has gotten
+popular. The current developments are that smart phones are getting
+more powerful with more CPU cores on one hand but the systems get
+slower more and more on the other hand. This prompted a lot of people
+to think about alternatives. Also among experts who know about the web's
+complexity. Gopher is a part of this alternative.
+
+M: So there's a movement that strives for less complexity and resource
+usage?
+
+C: Yes, it's about the internet, not only the web. There's a lot more
+besides the web. Bitreich is the part where software shall become simpler,
+since that's all connected.
+
+M: In your bitreich software development you write programs, that you
+use for yourself or because they are so simple to use them yourself...?
+
+C: It's about the command line in bitreich, for experienced users. The
+graphical user interfaces need a lot of resources. Gopher is the part
+for the end user. For developers it's about having nice command line
+tools that are fun to use. That's our goal. And that's achievable through
+simplicity only.
+
+M: Are modern tools too complicated with their graphical interfaces? I
+that really taking out the fun?
+
+C: Well, in the old days you'd have opened a text editor, which used up
+200 kilobyte of RAM. Today when you open up an editor it will load a
+webbroser in the background, this webbrowser will load javascript and
+this all uses up to several gigabytes of your RAM. And then this all
+has to display your source file. That's the current state of affairs!
+
+M: When you say you want to find new ways with bitreich project, to use
+less resources. Does it work? What are your experiences? Is it really
+more fun than viewing smooth videos on YouTube?
+
+C: I can see that I won't burn my upper legs when using gopher
+as opposed to viewing a website, where my laptop fan goes on and
+everything. Currently there are about 300 gopher servers, so we are
+a small fraction on the net. The whole web currently uses ~2% of the
+global electricity, sometimes even more…
+
+M: But one needs to have a bit of a background to use all this? If I
+imagine how easy it is today for average smartphone user to surf the
+web or go into a chat with other people exchanging text messages. You
+can visit an app store and will find ready made software. One click I'll
+get it installed. If I want to use gopher that's not so easy is it? Or
+a program to chat with others?
+
+C: There are different layers here. First you start by visiting
+gopherproject.org and if you are not using a gopher client you will
+be redirected to a 'web to gopher converter'. You'll be able to browse
+gopher sites in your webbrowser. And that's the entry point where you
+will get to further gates.
+
+M: So it's a gateway that I can use with a normal browser that does not
+speak gopher and still be able to browse gopher sites?
+
+C: There are also plugins for webbrowsers, at least firefox and
+chromium. One of the problems is that currently there has been a change
+in plugins for these so there might be incompatiblilities. There are
+many more clients listed on gopherproject.org.
+
+M: What about chat? I know there was a protocol that has been in use a
+lot: IRC - Internet relay chat. That's not as popular today is it?
+
+C: It is popular among software developers, because every open source
+project has their own channel. That's the easiest way to talk to
+developers and users. There are web clients, mobile clients, command
+line clients. IRC is implemented almost everywhere.
+
+M: That's capable of doing the things you can do with a messenger on
+the smartphone?
+
+C: It could but does not want to?
+
+M: Really?
+
+C: I do have the possibility to share, say a video, in whatsapp or
+images. You do not want this on IRC, it is a simple protocol. It's about
+sharing text. If I would add media, it would be impossible for hobbyists
+to run their own servers. You'd need more infrastructure on the size of
+facebook for example…
+
+M: You have said that 'hobbyists wouldn't be able to run their own
+servers'. Does that mean it is easy to set up?
+
+C: There are several possibilities: There's debian for example, a well
+known linux distribution, there are simple tutorials and instructions
+on how to set this up. A server has a monthly cost of about 3 EUR/month,
+which will be able to run a IRC server.
+
+M: And that's easy to get running?
+
+C: The server side is a bit more complicated, the client access is
+really easy.
+
+M: What other protocols are there, that follow this same idea of
+preserving bandwith and resources while being comparable replacements?
+
+C: Before the web there have been many other protocols already, based
+on the TCP/IP protocol. On there are ~65000 different ports that can be
+used. Today we send all over one or two ports for HTTP and encrypted
+HTTPS. There are many more protocols. For example 'dict': A protocol
+to query dictionary servers. You send a request 'I'd like to know the
+definition of this word' to the server and get back the definition of
+the requested word as text.
+
+M: Is this still in use? How would I use this today?
+
+C: There is dict.org which maintains the protocol. Bitreich has its
+own dictionary server for the urban dictionary which contains funny
+definitions of words. It's just another service, not inherently difficult.
+
+M: What other protocols are interesting for you?
+
+C: There's newsgroups, but the problem with them is spam. There's
+no efficient spam filtering method for newsgroups which is why they
+died. They have survived as a medium to exchange binary data. Which
+is why they are blocked in a lot of places due to them being used for
+piracy. And the servers don't scale since they all need to keep track
+of all the data on the network…
+
+Then there's the Tor protocol…
+
+M: Tor has also been around for a while. There have been spectacular
+events surrounding the Tor protocol. It's about anonymity right?
+
+C: Yes it is about anonymity. Today we now about the spy agencies
+through Snowden and them surveilling all the routers in Frankfurt and
+elsewhere. Which means they know where a data packet originates and
+ends. Tor packages data in a way that one cannot see the way the a packet
+is travelling. But the problem with Tor and the web is that there is a
+lot of meta data in a webbrowser. This can be used to identify users. This
+is where gopher can help.
+
+M: So Tor is a method to hide your identity and what websites you are
+visiting. When you say that there is too much meta data in a browser,
+then this means: Information about the browser's config, installed fonts,
+size of available RAM etc. Taken together all this information makes
+a user's device unique as there are maybe only ~1000 people having the
+same configuraition. That's how one can identify users right?
+
+C: Yes, that's how it works. Gopher can help here because there's a
+defined amount of meta data: zero. With Tor there are a couple of things
+one has to be aware of: I can leave the Tor network to visit a service
+outside or I can access a service inside the Tor network. If I stay
+completely inside the Tor network, there's no way for spy agencies to
+find the 'end trail' of my packets. That's total anonymity. If I use this
+to access the Facebook hidden service and I login with my credentials
+I identify myself, so that's pointless. But on gopher there's no way
+to login...
+
+M: If you use Tor and you login somewhere then your identity isn't hidden
+anymore of course…
+
+C: That's a problem for inexperienced users. They download the
+Tor-Browser, want to share their secrets about their regime. If I jsut
+hand them a torbrowser, it has certain metadata which spy agencys have
+special filters for. So they can be found easily. Which means all the
+basic layers have to be designed securely that the average whistleblower
+will not get in trouble.
+
+M: There have been differnt attempts at preserving privacy and not
+handing over data to big companies, by not taking part in one of the big
+networks. Are there alternatives to them? As opposed to using Facebook
+& Co.
+
+C: There's GNU Social for example or mastodon. If I go to facebook all
+data goes in and I get nothing out again. But if I use one of these
+(slightly more complex) protocols on my home server I can exchange
+messages with my friend in france, like: 'He has shared this picture or
+text message to the group'. That's decentralisation.
+
+M: So there's no central datacenter holding all information, but many
+servers holding on to what they need to know only.
+
+C: The facebook data scandal happened at the right time. There you
+noticed that there's political resistance. So facebook, Microsoft and
+others started a project to exchange and export data. But so far Facebook
+hasn't delivered.
+
+M: With export you mean exporting user data?
+
+C: I am referring to my timeline and all this.
+
+M: Are there many people using GNU Social or mastodon? Or is this a
+niche for specialists and nerds that care more about their privacy?
+
+C: It's really easy to use: enter 'gnu.social' in a webbrowser and
+you will get redirected ot a server instance. There are many of them
+and you choose the one where all your friends are already in the best
+case. You sign up there and then you will use this server to post into
+the network. It's all usable within the browser and it looks a lot
+like facebook.
+
+M: We have talked about software and how to install it. You need to have
+some background knowledge for using a command line as it is just a window
+with text, you enter text commands etc. What do you think about people
+getting into this: Does this have the potential to being used by a lot
+of people or even becomming mainstream? Can this work? Or is this too
+unwieldy and slow and complex for them?
+
+C: Let's look at the argument someone makes when switching from windows
+to linux: But there's only a command line! But if I take interest in
+my device then I'll learn how to use it. Back in the days I could fix
+a radio myself. Today I don't know what this funny device is doing…
+
+M: Yes?
+
+C: That's the point. It's about having fun with computers. If you regain
+that you'll learn how it operates and you'll dig deeper. And you will
+be able to modify it yourself.
+
+M: On the other hand a modern radio or computer does have a lot
+more features than a cathode tube radio, like searching for stations
+automatically, data transfer and offering a combination of different
+sources (analog radio, digital radio, internet streams). That's way easier
+than fiddling with the station knob yourself until you are listening to
+the station you want.
+
+C: I want to make a counter proposal: The problem with this is that you'll
+have to buy a new device every year a new protocol is established. But
+there are also things like the Raspberry Pi that's running linux and you
+can build your peripherals around that. If you want you can exchange
+that for something with more computing power later. It's all about
+modularity and wasting less. For computers and smartphones we do see
+this developments towards open source hardware. It will take very long
+due to vendors actively blocking these efforts.
+
+M: Simple usage also enables more people to use this technology. For
+example a navigation service on my smartphone is more comfortable than
+carrying around paper maps.
+
+C: That's why we talk about this. People need to know that the price
+for all this comfort is being under total surveillance. And the
+machine controlls me. That's why one needs to know how the machine
+works. Otherwise this will all be like magic and magic is never a good
+thing. We need more science.
+
+M: I'd like to come back to the navigation example: I've got a smartphone
+with an app and can accurately see where I am. That's a service I'd like
+to use, but I don't want to wade through complex software and install
+text only interfaces. That's too much for most people I think?
+
+C: Yes, noone will get attracted because of that. We do advocate that
+every project should be reusable. If we talk about maps, there's a map
+database, openstreetmap. There's someone that inputs all the maps into
+the database, there's a program generating maps. Now someone can put a
+text interface in front of the database to get to the same data. Not like
+facebook where data is hidden behind one web interface. If Facebook's
+going out of business all the data is gone. So we say: reusability. It
+would be a huge waste to redo all this data.
+
+M: What's the reason we don't have data reusablility today but big
+companies that collect all the data and not a lot of small contributions
+by people? After all the idea has been around for 20/30 years as well..
+
+C: Consumption is the problem. What's left of our social structure is
+the 'I want' and 'I get'. Everything in between the 'waiting', 'I need
+to master this' has been lost to Hypercapitalism.
+
+M: What do you think one can do about this? Is your attempt of focussing
+on simple protocols trying to turn back the wheel of time a little or
+changing it's direction a little?
+
+C: I cannot convert the whole world. That's impossible. It's about showing
+a different way. Someday someone will come along and use all this because
+it fits his needs. If I only have a generation of smartphone users that
+never have touched a personal computer, then they need to know that
+there's a cleaner and simpler way. You hand does not have to get warm
+when surfing the web.
+
+M: If I may exaggerate a little: We have had steam engines and horse
+carriages back then, today's tools are a lot better, more efficient and
+comfortable and enable us more?
+
+C: No! We beg to differ: Some of the old protocols could not reach
+everyone due to technical problems. But now I have gigabit internet
+connections and so on, content distribution over gopher is instant. You
+will see a difference. Try moving the mouse on a current Microsoft Windows
+machine and compare it to a Windows 95 device. The older machine will
+be faster. There are less layers of abstraction at work, it's simpler. A
+computer has to do some real work, not existing in pure theory, like in
+a bureaucracy. It's about practicality and fun.
+
+M: Having fun with the computer is a recurring topic. Is this a central
+point for you and your allies?
+
+C: Yes it is like in any other club out there. If it is no fun, why
+go there? We are hobbyists, working 8-10 hours per day, then I need
+a good reason for doing this. That may be why there's often rougher
+commnunication happening. Maybe due to us being human and not service
+staff. Then it may happen that we demand some signs of self help from
+others. This is not a self-service shop but a hobby. If I want to be
+part of that I have to do my share...
+
+
+[radio jingle]
+
+M: Here's the ABS Magasin: Arbeit, Bildung und Soziales. Your magazine
+about social policies here on radio x the Frankfurt citizen radio. We
+have talked about the gopher protocol, the simple way of exchanging text
+over the internet. We will continue our talk with Christoph as there
+are now some people that want to take care of the future development
+of gopher. What's the current state of affairs and how to move on? That
+will be one of the topics of an upcomming conference and we would like
+to know what will happen there. What's it about?
+
+C: It's about 'bitreich con' or conference. That will take place next
+saturday and sunday in Rodez, d partement Aveyron, South France as
+there's a bitreich member living there. But you can also follow the
+event online. There's the slides available on the gopher hole via ssh,
+an audio stream via gopher and IRC chat. So everyone can participate.
+
+M: So one can listen to talks, the discussions and ask questions via
+the IRC channel.
+
+C: Exactly! And your upper legs won't get burned while doing so.
+
+M: What's the schedule for the conference?
+
+C: On saturday we will talk about bitreich and what has happened there. We
+have made changes to our manifest, new members and projects. On sunday we
+will talk about gopher exclusively. A lot of americans will be looking
+forward to this as there hasn't been a gopher con in a long time. And
+they are mostly part of the older gopher community. So this will be the
+first time that we will all meet together again.
+
+M: And what will happen there? Will there be talks, programming sessions
+or just a social event with discussions?
+
+C: The most important thing for gopher is that we restart a discussion
+that has been dormant for the last years. We need some kind of team
+spirit again. As I said we do have 300 gopher servers this year, last
+year there have been 100. So there's an increase. The protocol itself
+has some sharp edges and warts that need to be discussed as well to
+define them in the future. Especially interaction between gopher and
+the web is still undefined. And we want to establish a discussion panel,
+to keep in touch with each other.
+
+M: You say there are 300 servers. What's on them? When I browsed through
+them I have found a log of 'phlogs', something you would call a blog on
+the web, right?
+
+C: Yes phlogs, just like blogs. There are many of then and there have
+been a lot of new phlogs. Because distribution of content is so simple,
+you upload your text and it's there to be read. Very simple, just as it
+should be. There's nothing more that for a blog as well really. A lot of
+people do this due to a retro chic, like enjoying it like in the good
+old days, some also do it due to it's idea of simplicity. Let me open
+up my slides for a talk I have prepared so I can tell you some services
+that might be interested for newcommers in the gopherspace.
+
+M: Gopherspace is the whole part of the network, all servers running the
+gopher protocol and all information on them? Just like the world wide web?
+
+C: Yes, that's what I mean by that. As an example we have the following
+services: A gopher frontend for mastodon/GNU Social as an alternative
+to Facebook. Then there's an interface for the pirate bay's search,
+an Interface for YouTube (search only), Wikipedia, a search searx which
+works like Google or duckduckgo but federated. Project Gutenberg, where
+old books are collected and there's even a search frontend for netflix.
+
+M: Those aren't static sites like text or audio or image files. But
+there are interactive elements?
+
+C: That's included in the gopher protocol. It's a search feature where
+you send a search request to a server and get a response back. That's
+how it is used in the pirate bay search for example where I send a search
+term and get back a list of torrents to download.
+
+M: That's not very different from websites…
+
+C: Oh yes, it's different! I have mentioned the structure imposed by
+gopher before. The looks will always be the same. I have a list of menus
+and links, which I can follow until there's a file behind it or more
+information. On the web you'll often have trouble finding your content
+due to all the ads.
+
+M: So the web currently is very heavy on graphics giving web designers a
+lot of possibilities to create a page. And then there are factors that
+have contributed to rising advertisements and the increasing resource
+hunger of these websites. Wouldn't it also be a proposal to say: Let's
+just use HTML 1.0 like in the beginning of the web? You'd get images and
+links but no extra code execution via javascript. Is that in alignment
+with your goals?
+
+C: I still have in mind what I have said about meta data and Tor. It would
+be a step in the right direction but many have tried this and many many
+have failed. That's a problem. The only thing you can do on the web to day
+is to browse the mobile version of a site and suddenly it's accessible.
+
+M: When you say 'failed', who do you tell? Does that mean it's too
+complicated to create even simple websites? Or did they fail because they
+look old and too retro? How can you tell that their attempt has failed?
+
+C: It's the same problem why we won't see gopher taking over the
+world. It's all too big. The same technology is everywhere but is seen
+differently in India or Afrika than here. Everyone has a different
+knowledge level. The same is true for repairs. Knowledge gets lost. The
+current generation does not this. It's important to show them that it
+can be different, it's about preserving that knowledge.
+
+M: With repairs you are referring to the ability to repair your own
+devices because they are designed in a simple way?
+
+C: Yes, but there's more to that today. We are in an era of 3D printing
+where Airbus will get 40% of the parts for an airplane out of a 3D
+printer. If done right we can do this also for the end user.
+
+M: So the HTML 1.0 revival has been an interesting idea from your point of
+view but it's not really suited to keep to simple and essential protocols?
+
+C: The problem with web development is that it's just piling up
+layers of software. There's javascript on top of javascript on top of
+javascript. The same is true for all commercial development. Why is it
+the hobbyists that have to take care of simplification? Everyone lives
+in their own filter bubble and as long as there's profit there's no need
+for change. That's a problem and that's why we have to show a new way
+as an alternative.
+
+M: If I keep piling up layers upon layers and build it so that I can
+still access the older layers then that's surely an advantage? To be
+able to continuously carry on work while being backwards compatible
+without making hard cuts where old content will not work anymore -
+
+C: That's a totally different problem: Take archive.org, the people
+trying to archive the web. They have huge problems scraping modern
+webpages trying to find content and archive it. That's due to the core
+problem of us not useing text anymore. That has to be solved. We use
+abstractions not test.
+
+M: Currently when using HTML, text files are transferred. Or are you
+fearing that there's just binary data exchanged in the future, to present
+you an image containing text?
+
+C: That's really happening at the moment, it's called web assembly. So
+there's binary programs being executed in the browser which further
+complicates it all. This also implies more acccess to the computer
+hardware, another issue we have been warning about since Snowden. It
+will get a lot worse.
+
+M: That sounds pretty fatalistic, the web is a lost cause and cannot be
+saved. Is it really that bleak?
+
+C: It will get more complex and intransparent. I cannot see it
+differently. The developments of the last 20 years have been going in
+this direction. We currently have only 3 web browsers left, that's als
+a sign. With gopher one can implement a client in a couple of minutes
+in virtually any programming langugage. There are only 3 browsers left
+because not a single person will manage to write another one in their
+live time. That's impossible with current standards.
+
+M: Do you have to recreate everything from scratch? Isn't it a
+possibility to stand on the shoulders of giants and do great things
+with that? Otherwise we will again have to solve the same problems with
+primitive tooling that have been solver already.
+
+C: That's the same argument we have already had. The world's too big. We
+offer one proposal how to make things simpler. Sometimes it gets picked
+up, sometimes it isn't. But it's about spreading this idea: It's possible
+to make it simpler! There are many people out there doing simple web
+pages but total and absolute simplicity will not happen. If we'd all use
+the same webbrowser for example we'd also have all the same security
+flaws. That's another point: With linux everyone can build their own
+system and is indepedent. Like with natural selection monoculture makes
+us fallible to the same virus.
+
+M: You say: We need to experiment, we need to be diverse we need to create
+things as we want them as users which is not the same as companies would
+like to design webpages and our communications.
+
+C: Companies may do what they want, once they see that people use our
+things because they are fun… as it is happening at Microsoft, they
+switch over to linux because linux is fun and they are having trouble
+finding developers that do Micrososift. That's why Microsoft is developing
+a linux subsystem and is porting linux software to it. Because there's
+noone who wants to work with this tedious and boring Microsoft stuff.
+
+M: Really? I have got the impression that windows is widespread in
+industry applications where software is available for windows only. Or
+in the games industry where a x86 windows platform is the prime one and
+Windows the tool of choice.
+
+C: That depends on your point of view! Linux has simply won!
+
+M: *laughs*
+
+C: Take the smartphone: 90% is running linux and there are whole
+generations of people in africa that use their phones as their sole
+device. Those are all linux users. Industry and commerce applications
+are niche products and niches move very slowly. Maybe we'll see a change
+there in 20-30 years. And that's the point: Now we have the possibility,
+now that there are no developers for Microsoft that do it with all their
+heart, it's all about passion anyway, then we have people here on the
+other hadn, that switch all over to linux. Microsoft is supporting docker,
+they even distribute their own linux images for their cloud service. Linux
+has won.
+
+M: You said that in some countries the desktop is irrelevant now, a
+smartphone more important. Do you think that's a development that will
+also reach us? Will the smartphone replace the laptop?
+
+C: I can simply tell you an observation: We have had a village festival
+here the other day and all the young ladies where sitting there using
+their smartphone.
+
+M: Okay...
+
+C: That's a sign isn't it!
+
+M: I see that you have a clear picture in mind… How's the reach of
+your project with gopher, irc and alternative social networks. Do you
+see any international recognition? Or is it more some experiment of
+people in the industrial nations?
+
+C: Americans, as these are the old Gents that have been tinkering with
+gopher in the old days, but there is also a wide reach in europ. I have
+seen a world map yesterday containing all the gopher servers. There
+have been 3 in africa, japan has had a couple, asia… there are
+interested people everywhere. I know 2 enthusiasts from argentina through
+bitreich. We are international, english is our langugae as wer are small.
+
+M: Is there a way to access gopher on smartphones?
+
+C: Proxies are the easiest way, seconed by 'overbite'. That's a gopher
+plugin for browsers made by Cameron Kaiser, an american developer. He has
+build solutions for Firefox and Chromium. You can find this through your
+webbrowser. There are also graphical clients but those you'll have to
+build yourself, so that's not suitable for beginners. But it's the same
+as on the desktop: The advanced users have their command line where they
+can run any of the command line clients, as it is a linux system. And
+the people specialised on the web can access it through a proxy. So
+there's accessibility on all levels including 'backwards' compatibility.
+
+M: You'll have your conference soon, where you will exchange ideas. Will
+there be a way to read up on this later?
+
+C: Yes the recordings and slides will be available online.
+
+M: Being available online is the right clue! You all know that
+you can listen to all of episodes of the ABS Magazin on our website
+absmagazin.de. There you can listen again to how this all works, have a
+look at the shownotes where we will put in all the links that have been
+mentioned on the show.
+
+You have been listening to this week's episode of the ABS Magazine. You
+have seen that there are many possibilities and a lot of them you can
+use for yourself, to create your information channels as you want them
+to be. Thanks for being with us, thanks for listening! You can join
+us again next week at 4pm on radio-x, 91,8MHz your Frankfurt citizen
+radio. So long!