spell checking - radio-interview-2018 - absmagazine interview about bitreich and gopher transcription files
HTML git clone git://bitreich.org/radio-interview-2018
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HTML Author: Christian Kellermann <ckeen@pestilenz.org>
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2018 13:32:17 +0200
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@@ -8,18 +8,18 @@ Nice to have you all here! Thanks for listening! We have got a new episode
for you, exciting things from the realm of communication technology.
We want to talk specifically about the internet... No, we do not want to
talk about the internet, neither do we want to talk about the dark net
-today, but something even more obscure: Today will be about 'gopherspace'.
+today, but something even more obscure: Today will be about 'gopher space'.
'Gopher' is a protocol, which has been introduced a bit earlier than
the world wide web. But it has faded a bit into obscurity. A protocol,
which might have to be said, is the way how computers talk to each
other, how they exchange their data. You may have heard about the HTTP
-protocol. You are using this when typing an URL into your brower. Or
+protocol. You are using this when typing an URL into your browser. Or
there is a protocol handling the exchange of E-Mails. And there's the
'gopher' protocol. Which is interesting in particular as it is simple
and similar to the web, such as: Gopher server provide text and provide
links. What they do not provide are pictures, additional features,
-Javascript or other complicated things.
+JavaScript or other complicated things.
This restriction providing test and links does also mean, that you can
work very fast with it, pages do load super fast. And there are people
@@ -28,11 +28,11 @@ much nick-nack. It is getting more and more difficult to get to the real
information on a site. Under these circumstance it is to the point to
have a closer look at the gopher protocol.
-We have talked to someone, who's knowledgable in this field. There
+We have talked to someone, who's knowledgeable in this field. There
is a group of people who will hold a conference soon, to discuss the
future of the gopher protocol and how to build a real, interesting,
alternative to the world wide web. But now we will have a little bit
-of music: Mrs. Beep with 'The spring is comming' a little bit of 8bit
+of music: Mrs. Beep with 'The spring is coming' a little bit of 8 bit
music. After that we will talk with Christoph Lohmann, who will tell us
something about the gopher protocol.
@@ -51,18 +51,18 @@ M: I have read that you are running a project called 'bitreich'. This
project is using some protocols that aren't known widely. But what's
this project about?
-C: bitreich's goal si to create simple software. This includes simple
+C: bitreich's goal is to create simple software. This includes simple
protocols like gopher. Simple principles, software that's fun to use. Our
-goals are stated on the website or better the gopherhole.
+goals are stated on the website or better the gopher hole.
M: Yes...
C: There are.. Well, we wanted to talk about gopher. It's about replacing
-big complex thingswith simple stuff which you can even implement yourself.
+big complex things with simple stuff which you can even implement yourself.
-M: Gopher does translate as 'Maulwurf' (german) right?
+M: Gopher does translate as 'Maulwurf' (German) right?
-C: Yes it does, it is derived from the gopher mascott of the MIT,
+C: Yes it does, it is derived from the gopher mascot of the MIT,
a university in the US. Also it is a pun on 'to go for'.
M: This protocol has existed for quite a long time now, probably earlier
@@ -105,7 +105,7 @@ M: Or two people talk to each other, they also can exchange ideas or
information that way.
C: Yeah, text is even more simple. If you take this further, there's for
-example linux, which listeners may have heard about. That's about how I
+example Linux, which listeners may have heard about. That's about how I
can do text processing on the command line. With images you'll have to
deal with more complex algorithms and that's not as easy to use.
@@ -114,8 +114,8 @@ that use less resources? If I transfer a text file it is probably much
smaller than an Image or a video file.
C: Yes, that's right. I can tell a story where I have needed this
-badly: In Bhutan in south asia, north of India, where it's all about
-the happyness of people, not like here… They have got a GSM Network
+badly: In Bhutan in south Asia, north of India, where it's all about
+the happiness of people, not like here… They have got a GSM Network
only. There has been a blackout and there has been only this slow data
network. But I have successfully retrieved my needed information via
gopher. It does not need a lot of resources.
@@ -124,7 +124,7 @@ M: So it is a protocol that's interesting for areas that are less
developed or where the aren't so many resources available?
C: Yes, gopher saves resources, but over all, since the web's problem is
-illustrated with youtube: Someone reads a text in a video which is served
+illustrated with YouTube: Someone reads a text in a video which is served
in HD and viewed on a 4k monitor. I could have sent out the text instead!
M: So the approach is this: Here is a protocol and programs, allowing to
@@ -159,7 +159,7 @@ that really taking out the fun?
C: Well, in the old days you'd have opened a text editor, which used up
200 kilobyte of RAM. Today when you open up an editor it will load a
-webbroser in the background, this webbrowser will load javascript and
+browser in the background, this web browser will load JavaScript and
this all uses up to several gigabytes of your RAM. And then this all
has to display your source file. That's the current state of affairs!
@@ -183,16 +183,16 @@ a program to chat with others?
C: There are different layers here. First you start by visiting
gopherproject.org and if you are not using a gopher client you will
be redirected to a 'web to gopher converter'. You'll be able to browse
-gopher sites in your webbrowser. And that's the entry point where you
+gopher sites in your web browser. And that's the entry point where you
will get to further gates.
M: So it's a gateway that I can use with a normal browser that does not
speak gopher and still be able to browse gopher sites?
-C: There are also plugins for webbrowsers, at least firefox and
+C: There are also plugins for web browsers, at least Firefox and
chromium. One of the problems is that currently there has been a change
-in plugins for these so there might be incompatiblilities. There are
-many more clients listed on gopherproject.org.
+in plugins for these so there might be incompatibilities. There are
+many more clients listed on gopher project.org.
M: What about chat? I know there was a protocol that has been in use a
lot: IRC - Internet relay chat. That's not as popular today is it?
@@ -213,13 +213,13 @@ C: I do have the possibility to share, say a video, in whatsapp or
images. You do not want this on IRC, it is a simple protocol. It's about
sharing text. If I would add media, it would be impossible for hobbyists
to run their own servers. You'd need more infrastructure on the size of
-facebook for example…
+Facebook for example…
M: You have said that 'hobbyists wouldn't be able to run their own
servers'. Does that mean it is easy to set up?
-C: There are several possibilities: There's debian for example, a well
-known linux distribution, there are simple tutorials and instructions
+C: There are several possibilities: There's Debian for example, a well
+known Linux distribution, there are simple tutorials and instructions
on how to set this up. A server has a monthly cost of about 3 EUR/month,
which will be able to run a IRC server.
@@ -229,7 +229,7 @@ C: The server side is a bit more complicated, the client access is
really easy.
M: What other protocols are there, that follow this same idea of
-preserving bandwith and resources while being comparable replacements?
+preserving bandwidth and resources while being comparable replacements?
C: Before the web there have been many other protocols already, based
on the TCP/IP protocol. On there are ~65000 different ports that can be
@@ -263,8 +263,8 @@ C: Yes it is about anonymity. Today we now about the spy agencies
through Snowden and them surveilling all the routers in Frankfurt and
elsewhere. Which means they know where a data packet originates and
ends. Tor packages data in a way that one cannot see the way the a packet
-is travelling. But the problem with Tor and the web is that there is a
-lot of meta data in a webbrowser. This can be used to identify users. This
+is traveling. But the problem with Tor and the web is that there is a
+lot of meta data in a web browser. This can be used to identify users. This
is where gopher can help.
M: So Tor is a method to hide your identity and what websites you are
@@ -272,7 +272,7 @@ visiting. When you say that there is too much meta data in a browser,
then this means: Information about the browser's config, installed fonts,
size of available RAM etc. Taken together all this information makes
a user's device unique as there are maybe only ~1000 people having the
-same configuraition. That's how one can identify users right?
+same configuration. That's how one can identify users right?
C: Yes, that's how it works. Gopher can help here because there's a
defined amount of meta data: zero. With Tor there are a couple of things
@@ -288,28 +288,28 @@ M: If you use Tor and you login somewhere then your identity isn't hidden
anymore of course…
C: That's a problem for inexperienced users. They download the
-Tor-Browser, want to share their secrets about their regime. If I jsut
-hand them a torbrowser, it has certain metadata which spy agencys have
+Tor-Browser, want to share their secrets about their regime. If I just
+hand them a tor browser, it has certain metadata which spy agencys have
special filters for. So they can be found easily. Which means all the
-basic layers have to be designed securely that the average whistleblower
+basic layers have to be designed securely that the average whistle blower
will not get in trouble.
-M: There have been differnt attempts at preserving privacy and not
+M: There have been different attempts at preserving privacy and not
handing over data to big companies, by not taking part in one of the big
networks. Are there alternatives to them? As opposed to using Facebook
& Co.
-C: There's GNU Social for example or mastodon. If I go to facebook all
+C: There's GNU Social for example or mastodon. If I go to Facebook all
data goes in and I get nothing out again. But if I use one of these
(slightly more complex) protocols on my home server I can exchange
-messages with my friend in france, like: 'He has shared this picture or
-text message to the group'. That's decentralisation.
+messages with my friend in France, like: 'He has shared this picture or
+text message to the group'. That's decentralization.
-M: So there's no central datacenter holding all information, but many
+M: So there's no central data center holding all information, but many
servers holding on to what they need to know only.
-C: The facebook data scandal happened at the right time. There you
-noticed that there's political resistance. So facebook, Microsoft and
+C: The Facebook data scandal happened at the right time. There you
+noticed that there's political resistance. So Facebook, Microsoft and
others started a project to exchange and export data. But so far Facebook
hasn't delivered.
@@ -320,22 +320,22 @@ C: I am referring to my timeline and all this.
M: Are there many people using GNU Social or mastodon? Or is this a
niche for specialists and nerds that care more about their privacy?
-C: It's really easy to use: enter 'gnu.social' in a webbrowser and
-you will get redirected ot a server instance. There are many of them
+C: It's really easy to use: enter 'gnu.social' in a web browser and
+you will get redirected to a server instance. There are many of them
and you choose the one where all your friends are already in the best
case. You sign up there and then you will use this server to post into
the network. It's all usable within the browser and it looks a lot
-like facebook.
+like Facebook.
M: We have talked about software and how to install it. You need to have
some background knowledge for using a command line as it is just a window
with text, you enter text commands etc. What do you think about people
getting into this: Does this have the potential to being used by a lot
-of people or even becomming mainstream? Can this work? Or is this too
+of people or even becoming mainstream? Can this work? Or is this too
unwieldy and slow and complex for them?
C: Let's look at the argument someone makes when switching from windows
-to linux: But there's only a command line! But if I take interest in
+to Linux: But there's only a command line! But if I take interest in
my device then I'll learn how to use it. Back in the days I could fix
a radio myself. Today I don't know what this funny device is doing…
@@ -354,7 +354,7 @@ the station you want.
C: I want to make a counter proposal: The problem with this is that you'll
have to buy a new device every year a new protocol is established. But
-there are also things like the Raspberry Pi that's running linux and you
+there are also things like the Raspberry Pi that's running Linux and you
can build your peripherals around that. If you want you can exchange
that for something with more computing power later. It's all about
modularity and wasting less. For computers and smartphones we do see
@@ -367,7 +367,7 @@ carrying around paper maps.
C: That's why we talk about this. People need to know that the price
for all this comfort is being under total surveillance. And the
-machine controlls me. That's why one needs to know how the machine
+machine controls me. That's why one needs to know how the machine
works. Otherwise this will all be like magic and magic is never a good
thing. We need more science.
@@ -376,13 +376,13 @@ with an app and can accurately see where I am. That's a service I'd like
to use, but I don't want to wade through complex software and install
text only interfaces. That's too much for most people I think?
-C: Yes, noone will get attracted because of that. We do advocate that
+C: Yes, no one will get attracted because of that. We do advocate that
every project should be reusable. If we talk about maps, there's a map
database, openstreetmap. There's someone that inputs all the maps into
the database, there's a program generating maps. Now someone can put a
text interface in front of the database to get to the same data. Not like
-facebook where data is hidden behind one web interface. If Facebook's
-going out of business all the data is gone. So we say: reusability. It
+Facebook where data is hidden behind one web interface. If Facebook's
+going out of business all the data is gone. So we say: re-usability. It
would be a huge waste to redo all this data.
M: What's the reason we don't have data reusablility today but big
@@ -391,9 +391,9 @@ by people? After all the idea has been around for 20/30 years as well..
C: Consumption is the problem. What's left of our social structure is
the 'I want' and 'I get'. Everything in between the 'waiting', 'I need
-to master this' has been lost to Hypercapitalism.
+to master this' has been lost to Hyper-capitalism.
-M: What do you think one can do about this? Is your attempt of focussing
+M: What do you think one can do about this? Is your attempt of focusing
on simple protocols trying to turn back the wheel of time a little or
changing it's direction a little?
@@ -423,7 +423,7 @@ point for you and your allies?
C: Yes it is like in any other club out there. If it is no fun, why
go there? We are hobbyists, working 8-10 hours per day, then I need
a good reason for doing this. That may be why there's often rougher
-commnunication happening. Maybe due to us being human and not service
+communication happening. Maybe due to us being human and not service
staff. Then it may happen that we demand some signs of self help from
others. This is not a self-service shop but a hobby. If I want to be
part of that I have to do my share...
@@ -437,11 +437,11 @@ have talked about the gopher protocol, the simple way of exchanging text
over the internet. We will continue our talk with Christoph as there
are now some people that want to take care of the future development
of gopher. What's the current state of affairs and how to move on? That
-will be one of the topics of an upcomming conference and we would like
+will be one of the topics of an upcoming conference and we would like
to know what will happen there. What's it about?
C: It's about 'bitreich con' or conference. That will take place next
-saturday and sunday in Rodez, d partement Aveyron, South France as
+Saturday and Sunday in Rodez, d partement Aveyron, South France as
there's a bitreich member living there. But you can also follow the
event online. There's the slides available on the gopher hole via ssh,
an audio stream via gopher and IRC chat. So everyone can participate.
@@ -453,9 +453,9 @@ C: Exactly! And your upper legs won't get burned while doing so.
M: What's the schedule for the conference?
-C: On saturday we will talk about bitreich and what has happened there. We
-have made changes to our manifest, new members and projects. On sunday we
-will talk about gopher exclusively. A lot of americans will be looking
+C: On Saturday we will talk about bitreich and what has happened there. We
+have made changes to our manifest, new members and projects. On Sunday we
+will talk about gopher exclusively. A lot of Americans will be looking
forward to this as there hasn't been a gopher con in a long time. And
they are mostly part of the older gopher community. So this will be the
first time that we will all meet together again.
@@ -483,17 +483,17 @@ should be. There's nothing more that for a blog as well really. A lot of
people do this due to a retro chic, like enjoying it like in the good
old days, some also do it due to it's idea of simplicity. Let me open
up my slides for a talk I have prepared so I can tell you some services
-that might be interested for newcommers in the gopherspace.
+that might be interested for newcomers in the gopher space.
-M: Gopherspace is the whole part of the network, all servers running the
+M: Gopher space is the whole part of the network, all servers running the
gopher protocol and all information on them? Just like the world wide web?
C: Yes, that's what I mean by that. As an example we have the following
-services: A gopher frontend for mastodon/GNU Social as an alternative
+services: A gopher fronted for mastodon/GNU Social as an alternative
to Facebook. Then there's an interface for the pirate bay's search,
an Interface for YouTube (search only), Wikipedia, a search searx which
works like Google or duckduckgo but federated. Project Gutenberg, where
-old books are collected and there's even a search frontend for netflix.
+old books are collected and there's even a search fronted for Netflix.
M: Those aren't static sites like text or audio or image files. But
there are interactive elements?
@@ -516,7 +516,7 @@ lot of possibilities to create a page. And then there are factors that
have contributed to rising advertisements and the increasing resource
hunger of these websites. Wouldn't it also be a proposal to say: Let's
just use HTML 1.0 like in the beginning of the web? You'd get images and
-links but no extra code execution via javascript. Is that in alignment
+links but no extra code execution via JavaScript. Is that in alignment
with your goals?
C: I still have in mind what I have said about meta data and Tor. It would
@@ -530,7 +530,7 @@ look old and too retro? How can you tell that their attempt has failed?
C: It's the same problem why we won't see gopher taking over the
world. It's all too big. The same technology is everywhere but is seen
-differently in India or Afrika than here. Everyone has a different
+differently in India or Africa than here. Everyone has a different
knowledge level. The same is true for repairs. Knowledge gets lost. The
current generation does not this. It's important to show them that it
can be different, it's about preserving that knowledge.
@@ -546,8 +546,8 @@ M: So the HTML 1.0 revival has been an interesting idea from your point of
view but it's not really suited to keep to simple and essential protocols?
C: The problem with web development is that it's just piling up
-layers of software. There's javascript on top of javascript on top of
-javascript. The same is true for all commercial development. Why is it
+layers of software. There's JavaScript on top of JavaScript on top of
+JavaScript. The same is true for all commercial development. Why is it
the hobbyists that have to take care of simplification? Everyone lives
in their own filter bubble and as long as there's profit there's no need
for change. That's a problem and that's why we have to show a new way
@@ -560,8 +560,8 @@ without making hard cuts where old content will not work anymore -
C: That's a totally different problem: Take archive.org, the people
trying to archive the web. They have huge problems scraping modern
-webpages trying to find content and archive it. That's due to the core
-problem of us not useing text anymore. That has to be solved. We use
+web pages trying to find content and archive it. That's due to the core
+problem of us not using text anymore. That has to be solved. We use
abstractions not test.
M: Currently when using HTML, text files are transferred. Or are you
@@ -570,18 +570,18 @@ you an image containing text?
C: That's really happening at the moment, it's called web assembly. So
there's binary programs being executed in the browser which further
-complicates it all. This also implies more acccess to the computer
+complicates it all. This also implies more access to the computer
hardware, another issue we have been warning about since Snowden. It
will get a lot worse.
M: That sounds pretty fatalistic, the web is a lost cause and cannot be
saved. Is it really that bleak?
-C: It will get more complex and intransparent. I cannot see it
+C: It will get more complex and nontransparent. I cannot see it
differently. The developments of the last 20 years have been going in
-this direction. We currently have only 3 web browsers left, that's als
+this direction. We currently have only 3 web browsers left, that's also
a sign. With gopher one can implement a client in a couple of minutes
-in virtually any programming langugage. There are only 3 browsers left
+in virtually any programming language. There are only 3 browsers left
because not a single person will manage to write another one in their
live time. That's impossible with current standards.
@@ -595,21 +595,21 @@ offer one proposal how to make things simpler. Sometimes it gets picked
up, sometimes it isn't. But it's about spreading this idea: It's possible
to make it simpler! There are many people out there doing simple web
pages but total and absolute simplicity will not happen. If we'd all use
-the same webbrowser for example we'd also have all the same security
-flaws. That's another point: With linux everyone can build their own
-system and is indepedent. Like with natural selection monoculture makes
+the same web browser for example we'd also have all the same security
+flaws. That's another point: With Linux everyone can build their own
+system and is independent. Like with natural selection mono culture makes
us fallible to the same virus.
M: You say: We need to experiment, we need to be diverse we need to create
things as we want them as users which is not the same as companies would
-like to design webpages and our communications.
+like to design web pages and our communications.
C: Companies may do what they want, once they see that people use our
things because they are fun… as it is happening at Microsoft, they
-switch over to linux because linux is fun and they are having trouble
-finding developers that do Micrososift. That's why Microsoft is developing
-a linux subsystem and is porting linux software to it. Because there's
-noone who wants to work with this tedious and boring Microsoft stuff.
+switch over to Linux because Linux is fun and they are having trouble
+finding developers that do Microsoft. That's why Microsoft is developing
+a Linux subsystem and is porting Linux software to it. Because there's
+no one who wants to work with this tedious and boring Microsoft stuff.
M: Really? I have got the impression that windows is widespread in
industry applications where software is available for windows only. Or
@@ -620,15 +620,15 @@ C: That depends on your point of view! Linux has simply won!
M: *laughs*
-C: Take the smartphone: 90% is running linux and there are whole
-generations of people in africa that use their phones as their sole
-device. Those are all linux users. Industry and commerce applications
+C: Take the smartphone: 90% is running Linux and there are whole
+generations of people in Africa that use their phones as their sole
+device. Those are all Linux users. Industry and commerce applications
are niche products and niches move very slowly. Maybe we'll see a change
there in 20-30 years. And that's the point: Now we have the possibility,
now that there are no developers for Microsoft that do it with all their
heart, it's all about passion anyway, then we have people here on the
-other hadn, that switch all over to linux. Microsoft is supporting docker,
-they even distribute their own linux images for their cloud service. Linux
+other hand, that switch all over to Linux. Microsoft is supporting docker,
+they even distribute their own Linux images for their cloud service. Linux
has won.
M: You said that in some countries the desktop is irrelevant now, a
@@ -644,27 +644,27 @@ M: Okay...
C: That's a sign isn't it!
M: I see that you have a clear picture in mind… How's the reach of
-your project with gopher, irc and alternative social networks. Do you
+your project with gopher, IRC and alternative social networks. Do you
see any international recognition? Or is it more some experiment of
people in the industrial nations?
C: Americans, as these are the old Gents that have been tinkering with
-gopher in the old days, but there is also a wide reach in europ. I have
+gopher in the old days, but there is also a wide reach in Europe. I have
seen a world map yesterday containing all the gopher servers. There
-have been 3 in africa, japan has had a couple, asia… there are
-interested people everywhere. I know 2 enthusiasts from argentina through
-bitreich. We are international, english is our langugae as wer are small.
+have been 3 in Africa, japan has had a couple, Asia… there are
+interested people everywhere. I know 2 enthusiasts from Argentina through
+bitreich. We are international, English is our language as we are small.
M: Is there a way to access gopher on smartphones?
-C: Proxies are the easiest way, seconed by 'overbite'. That's a gopher
-plugin for browsers made by Cameron Kaiser, an american developer. He has
+C: Proxies are the easiest way, seconded by 'overbite'. That's a gopher
+plugin for browsers made by Cameron Kaiser, an American developer. He has
build solutions for Firefox and Chromium. You can find this through your
-webbrowser. There are also graphical clients but those you'll have to
+web browser. There are also graphical clients but those you'll have to
build yourself, so that's not suitable for beginners. But it's the same
as on the desktop: The advanced users have their command line where they
-can run any of the command line clients, as it is a linux system. And
-the people specialised on the web can access it through a proxy. So
+can run any of the command line clients, as it is a Linux system. And
+the people specialized on the web can access it through a proxy. So
there's accessibility on all levels including 'backwards' compatibility.
M: You'll have your conference soon, where you will exchange ideas. Will
@@ -675,7 +675,7 @@ C: Yes the recordings and slides will be available online.
M: Being available online is the right clue! You all know that
you can listen to all of episodes of the ABS Magazin on our website
absmagazin.de. There you can listen again to how this all works, have a
-look at the shownotes where we will put in all the links that have been
+look at the show notes where we will put in all the links that have been
mentioned on the show.
You have been listening to this week's episode of the ABS Magazine. You