Subj : WWIII To : BOB KLAHN From : Lee Lofaso Date : Sat Jul 05 2014 22:36:11 Hello Bob, BOB KLAHN -> ALEXANDER KORYAGIN brought next idea : BK> Without true freedom of speech and the press no one can have any BK> idea what is going on in Russia. However, any govt that puts a BK> woman's music group in prison for protest songs, and for a long BK> time, is not a govt I believe is honest. And what, pray tell, might "true freedom of speech and the press" be? Certainly we do not have that here, in the good old U.S. of A. So how can you say or even suggest that Russia is any worse of a country than we are when it comes to such matters? In regards to Pussy Riot, those girls were not imprisoned because of the music (if one can call it that) they played. They desecrated a church. Try doing that in a church in America and see how long it takes for the men in blue to come pick your sorry ass up. The congregation would applaud the cops and invite them all to dinner. BK>>> I wonder about that. I wonder if, maybe, he's got it backwards. I BK>>> wonder if the result of doing nothing might not be what leads to BK>>> the war nobody wants. BK>>> We have long been told that Hitler might have been stopped, BK>>> probably would have been stopped, if the other nations had stepped BK>>> in with his first aggression against the Sudentenland, against BK>>> Austria, against those who could not defend themselves. BK>>> What makes anyone think Putin is any less than Hitler? AK>> Your words are a twaddle unless you see the columns of AK>> Russian tanks and troops marching along the Ukraine roads. BK> Once that happens it's too late. What we do know is those troops BK> and tanks were massed on the Ukraine border, but have recently BK> been withdrawn. We invaded Mexico and annexed half their country as our own. We also invaded the Kingdom of Hawai'i and annexed that entire country as our own. At least we bought Alaska fair and square from the Russians rather than taking it by force ... BK> What Putin has accomplished is to give the former Soviet states BK> reason to believe he is trying to reconstitute the Soviet Union. BK> That gives them reason to ask for more US military aid, BK> including the anti-missile systems that had been canceled a few BK> years ago. President Putin is not interested in resurrecting the former Soviet Union. He was nothing more than a lowly clerk in the KGB during those halcyon days, and not a very well-paid one at that. Being Top Dog in the new Russia with all the pretty girls begging him for favors is much more his style. A return to the Cold War is not in Putin's (or Russia's) best interest. Putin knows this. So do the Russian people, as well as all of Europe. What Putin wants is for Europe to remain divided, rather than for Europe to unite in a tightly knit European Union. Putin has allies in Europe who are with him on this. And it is with those allies that Putin will seek to make deals, or at least use them to gain influence with others. AK>> Who told you that countries cannot split up? Why do you AK>> think that Ukraine cannot split like Yugoslavia, AK>> Czechoslovakia? BK> I have no problem with countries splitting up. What I do have is BK> when one portion wants to secede, and the reports are of masked BK> gunmen patrolling the cities. If they are legitimate, why are BK> they masked? Abraham Lincoln had no problem with slavery, but did have a big problem with countries splitting up. In fact, he had so much of a problem he started a war ... BK> If the people who live there want to split off, I don't have a BK> problem with that. I do have a problem with it being done by BK> masked gunmen. President Jefferson Davis never wore a mask. Neither did General Robert E. Lee ... AK>> It is not pro-Russian forces are fighting AK>> in eastern Ukraine. It is the Russian people who always AK>> lived there, in eastern and southern Ukraine, and they were AK>> extremely insulted when pro-western rebels removed their AK>> candidate (Yanukovich, who won democratic elections) from AK>> power. BK> Being insulted is not ground for shooting up the place, and BK> killing people. It is not grounds for seizing power. Now, how BK> many Russian people live there? And why are Russians living in BK> Ukraine and claiming the right to decide who rules the country? It all ccmes down to one basic question - "What do the people want?" And most people in Crimea consider themselves as being Russian. --Lee AK>> Rebels in Kiev were minority, but they captured AK>> power by force, violating all democratic institutions and AK>> election results. BK> By force? It seems most of the force was used against them. BK> According to what I have seen, the constitution was rewritten BK> after Yonukovych took power, not by a constitutional convention BK> or such, but by the courts. The protestors started out demanding BK> the previous constitution be reinstated. BK> ---------------------------------------------------------------- BK> http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-25182830 BK> But it was the deaths of at least 88 people, many of them BK> protesters shot dead by uniformed snipers in 48 hours of BK> bloodshed, that ultimately brought him down. BK> ---------------------------------------------------------------- AK>> Putin is not Hiller, just because Russia is not a fascist AK>> Germany. AK>> Russia doesn't want to rule over the world and AK>> topple those governments it doesn't like. It is somebody AK>> else. BK> Russia maybe not, Putin I'm not so sure of. BK>>> When Obama declared he was pulling our troops out of Afghanistan BK>>> and Iraq the Republicans ranted and raved about how no one would BK> ... AK>> It easy to explain. When you conquer a country _by military AK>> invasion_ you, as a rule, can find collaborators only among AK>> bastards, traitors and thieves. So, it is no wonder when BK> Afghanistan was the base for the 9-11 attack. Iraq was a war for BK> oil. We should have been out of Afghanistan quickly, and never BK> in Iraq. I was talking about the republican reaction to a screw BK> up series of wars, vs doing nothing or something now. BK> ... BK>>> No matter what the status of the Ukraine and it's government, BK>>> Russia is clearly an outside invader. Failing to come to their aid BK>>> would be a clear sign to Putin that the West really is too weak to BK>>> stop him. Not too militarily weak, on that we outweigh them in BK>>> spade, but too weak morally. AK>> It is not correct. Ask people from Israel or the US what an AK>> invasion looks like. So far you can't tell of Russian AK>> "invasion". People must be very accurate in such things. BK> Putin has backed off. However, it certainly appeared he wanted BK> to cut the Ukraine up. BK> http://tinyurl.com/lsgsoqd BK> washingtonpost BK> ousted-ukraine-president-warns-of-civil-war-criticizes-us-for- BK> aiding-current-government BK> Yanukovych last appeared in public Feb. 28, in a news BK> conference also in Rostov, when he asserted he was still the BK> legal president of Ukraine and that he was not calling upon BK> Russia to intervene militarily. BK> The next day, Russia's parliament authorized President Vladimir BK> Putin to send troops into Ukraine, and soon thereafter Russia BK> asserted that Yanukovych had requested the intervention the day BK> after he spoke to the press. BK> ... BK> Ousted Ukraine president warns of civil war, criticizes U.S. BK> for aiding current government BK> ... BK> "The cities are being patrolled by masked gunmen," Yanukovych BK> said in a statement to the press in the southern Russian city BK> of Rostov-on-Don. BK> Yanukovych, who read from a statement in Russian and did not BK> take questions, accused the West and the United States of BK> backing fascists in Ukraine - another regular allegation being BK> made by Russian authorities. BK> ... BK> On March 6, after gunmen took over the parliament building in BK> the Crimean regional capital, Simferopol, a pro-Russian BK> leadership was installed. Then the regional parliament voted BK> behind closed doors for Crimea to leave Ukraine and join BK> Russia, setting a referendum for Sunday to validate their BK> decision. BK> Some links to look at. BK> Wall street journal BK> http://tinyurl.com/ohlh6ys BK> http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27633117 BK> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Ukrainian_revolution BK> BOB KLAHN bob.klahn@sev.org http://home.toltbbs.com/bobklahn BK> .. I'm not lost -- I'm "locationally challenged" BK> --- Via Silver Xpress V4.5/P [Reg] BK> * Origin: Fidonet Since 1991 bbs.docsnetservices.com (1:123/140) --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb * Origin: news://felten.yi.org (2:203/2) .