Subj : Re: WWIII To : BOB KLAHN From : alexander koryagin Date : Sun Jul 20 2014 19:23:39 Hi, BOB KLAHN! I read your message from 17.07.2014 02:16 BK>>> Without true freedom of speech and the press no one can have any BK>>> idea what is going on in Russia. However, any govt that puts a BK>>> woman's music group in prison for protest songs, and for a long BK>>> time, is not a govt I believe is honest. AK>> I believe you can hardly imagine a situation when some Arab girls AK>> in frivolous, "ala gay parade" style clothes rush into the main AK>> Jerusalem synagogue and start singing "Allah, kill infidels?" AK>> Jews, I believe, can understand that such an act is criminal and AK>> completely unacceptable. But BK> Which would require maybe 30 days. Not several years. Maybe it is correct that the scale of the insult had been taken into account. One thing, when you insulted a few passengers in the bus. 30 days of detention is a just term. Another thing, when you desecrated the main state cathedral and insulted millions of believers. I don't believe that they were imprisoned for their chanting "Mother of God, remove Putin from Russia." If they had said it loudly, without that fucking fuss, they would not have been taken in court. BK> Does that apply to the protest Pussy Riot being attacked with whips BK> in Sochi last February? There are hooligans in any part of politics or culture. Some local Cossack went go beyond their commission when they had seen that the girls were going to undertake another performance. But surely, that whipping was to scare the girls. I think you understand well that if the girls had had the traces of whipping on the bodies they would have interneted them out instantly. AK>> It is now all the same for them -- a gay parade in a street or a AK>> fucking mess in the main cathedral. It must be equally allowed. AK>> Well, at least in Russia. ;) BK> Real freedom means a gay parade must be tolerated. As to singing in BK> a cathedral, how is that a fucking mess? So they get thrown out. If BK> they have been praising Putin they would probably get a medal. Every culture has its own understanding about limitations the people must impose on themselves voluntarily. Such limitations define civilization. Such a thing cannot be universal. For instance, in the US Madonna glints with its naked hams and the crowd roars, but in some countries she is seen disdainfully, like a prostitute. AK>> But now it is too early to speak in this way, and your comparisons AK>> are false. The only correct comparison is comparing the situation AK>> in Ukraine with the situation in Yugoslavia after some areas of it AK>> declared a separation. BK> Not really. Not is, "as is widely believed, Russia is sending in BK> provacatuers to instigate unrest, and soldiers to fight there. They BK> have admitted they are there, but claim they are volunteers. What BK> would even volunteers be doing there? Russia sends nobody, at least nobody can prove it by facts. Volunteers penetrate into Ukraine themselves. As you know well until recent time the border between Ukraine and Russia was just a scratch on the map. AK>> Until the civil war Yugoslavia's borders and integrity were also AK>> recognized across the world. BK> And what part of Yougoslavia asked to be admitted to Russia? Ukraine fights with sepatist in its east. Yugoslavia fought with separatist on its west. That is the only difference. The main question is should a country kill thousand of people for their desire to live separately? Should the US or other country in the 21st century think that such killings are OK? AK>> There are 8-9 million Russians in Ukraine. It is incorrect to call AK>> them killers or terrorists, as the present authority does. More of AK>> that -- it is a gruesome propaganda BK> Yet they have been killing people. Some of them. If the rest of the BK> 8-9 million Russians don't agree with that, then what is the basis BK> for it being done? Separatist fighters in Ukraine have a wide support of the population. Especially now after hundreds of civilians were killed by the Ukraine's army. AK>> that!), but after the western rebels had come to power in Kiev AK>> they shamelessly started to use a brutal force against eastern AK>> protesters. After some victims the wheel of a civil war had AK>> started its rotation. Blood is a perfect lubricant for it. BK> So, why are Russian "volunteers" involved? 8-9 million Russians BK> living there should be enough to handle it. The great amount of volunteers from Russia is the Ukraine's propaganda invention. There are no trustworthy numbers. I think the number of volunteers from Russia is small. The reason is simple - what Russia is going to do by sending a small number of troops into Ukraine? Does it want to conquer Ukraine in such a way? No chances. The fighting in Ukraine has some sense only in the case that the local people form the bulk of fighters, and they are ready to fight for their freedom to the end. AK>>>> Rebels in Kiev were minority, but they captured power by force, AK>>>> violating all democratic institutions and election results. BK>>> By force? It seems most of the force was used against them. AK>> The Kiev police just guarded government buildings from the rebels. AK>> Actually, there was only one attempt to clear Maidan -- when AK>> Yanukovich was on his foreign visit. The BK> Ya know, if you include links to your sources I can look at them. BK> It's legal here. Read [[[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/30_November_2013_attack_on_protesters#30_November_attack_on_protesters 30 November attack on protesters]]] AK>> police had cleared Maidan during a half-an-hour. But there was AK>> outcry about democracy violation and the demonstrators were AK>> allowed to come back. After that the police looked like lamp posts AK>> and were burned alive with Molotov cocktails. BK> I saw one video of police vehicles driving into the protest lines, BK> and getting molotov cocktails in return. I saw million time when American police drives into the protest lines, but I never saw molotov cocktails in return. ;-) It is probably double standards. BK>>> According to what I have seen, the constitution was rewritten BK>>> after Yonukovych took power, not by a constitutional convention BK>>> or such, but by the courts. The protestors started out demanding BK>>> the previous constitution be reinstated. AK>> After wining the 2010 elections Yanukovich was the legitimate AK>> state leader and, besides, the leader of the biggest AK>> parliamentarian coalition. They had all rights to do the changes AK>> they wanted. It is democracy. If another BK> Nowhere in any democracy I am familiar with does the winner get to BK> rewrite the constitution just like that. Well, the new president Poroshenko promotes his variant of new constitution. It is also different from 2004 variant. New countries (like Ukraine) always construct new constitutes often. BK> Rebelious private citizens don't capture weapons and bases from the BK> military without help. It is possible when military refuse to shoot protesters. AK>> somebody don't want to spill blood or fight with them they must AK>> negotiate with them and, first, to stop call them terrorists and AK>> bandits. How easily some people can use such marks and tags! BK> Who is calling them terrorists and bandits? No one here I know of. Ukraine authority call them always in such a way. The war operation in the Ukraine's east is called "ATO" -- anti terrorist operation. AK>> And at last about the referendum. It was open and honest. AK>> Everybody voted as he wanted. Those who chose not to vote (many of AK>> the 13% Tatar population, for instance) were free in making their AK>> choice, and their votes were taken into account and not hidden. AK>> Everybody in the Crimea had an opportunity to express his choice. BK> Which requires outside observers to verify. Who was observing? All who wanted to. EU declared the referendum illegal and refused to send its observers. But any way there were many observers there. AK>> A NATO's general whined bitterly that the Crimea referendum "was AK>> held under Russian gun barrels," but it is more fare to say that AK>> the last Ukraine elections were held under the gun barrels of AK>> Ukraine's army, at least in the east. What BK> Do you have a link to refer to on that? Search materials about Civil war in Ukraine. Is is possible to do elections when one part of a coutry fights with the other? AK>> kind of fare elections can be in a country with a civil war? BTW, AK>> it is exactly the same reason why the latest elections in Syria AK>> were declared illegal by the West. Double standards? BK> Do you see the Ukraine army fighting itself in this war? Who is the BK> other army? Thousands of heavy armed insurgents? Bye, BOB! Alexander Koryagin fido7.debate 2014 --- FIDOGATE 5.1.7ds * Origin: Pushkin's BBS (2:5020/2140.2) .