00:00:00 --- log: started forth/02.03.16 00:25:27 --- join: onetom (tom@adsl52070.vnet.hu) joined #forth 01:34:12 --- join: rob_ert (~robert@h173n2fls33o898.telia.com) joined #forth 05:10:02 nobody here? 05:15:42 yeah 05:15:46 I am =) 05:15:46 And you 05:15:59 me 2 05:16:28 how about savannah? 05:16:43 4os project still doesnt exist 05:16:51 ive ask them about it 05:17:00 and got the following asnwer 05:17:13 > How can I access this project, ive just created? 05:17:13 The project need to be approved. 05:17:13 Since the description you provide is probably too short, it won't 05:17:13 faster the process. 05:17:13 Use this waiting time to think to a more explicit description :)) 05:17:40 Hehe 05:17:49 What did you write about it? 05:44:28 well... not much in deed:) 05:45:10 hehe 06:04:44 I'm downloading C64-forth :) 06:04:48 (and an emulator) 06:05:02 I have a C128 and a disk with 64-forth also :) 06:05:17 But I don't feel like going down to the TV with the,m 07:09:26 --- join: Etaoin (~david@ljk3.sat.net) joined #forth 07:30:20 Hi :) 07:59:43 hello 08:38:50 --- join: Speuler (~l@195.30.184.51) joined #forth 08:38:59 'oi 08:39:15 Hi :) 08:39:31 I'm going to write a small forth with another guy just for practicing. 08:39:41 With the basic words needed for a somewhat useful system. 08:39:46 good way to learn 08:39:53 Do you know where I can get information about a forth's internals? 08:40:02 from the sources :) 08:40:04 I need to know how to make the intepreter work :) 08:40:09 oh 08:40:10 Know any good ssources? 08:40:12 that's simple 08:40:29 you know what the interpreter does ? 08:40:54 pseudo code: 08:41:44 : interpret begin word while find if 08:42:22 compiling if immediate not if , else execute else execute 08:42:53 else number if literal ... brb 08:43:19 ok.. 08:47:33 --- join: wossname (wossname@HSE-QuebecCity-ppp81197.qc.sympatico.ca) joined #forth 08:47:35 moog 08:47:42 Hi 08:47:45 ha, this is where speuler has fled to 08:47:51 :) 08:49:36 forth is a magical state of mind 08:49:48 someday, maybe my mind will run on a pair of stacks as well 08:51:27 Yay. 08:51:28 Hmm.. 08:51:46 I still haven't found any information on how does> and co. worl 08:51:47 work 08:51:48 good day to you sirs 08:51:51 the internals 08:52:34 --- quit: wossname ("Z__boooooooom") 08:52:57 back 08:53:10 i like to help lady clients 08:53:53 :) 08:54:02 Sorry for not being a lady. 08:54:09 that one as cute 08:54:22 wants to go to concert 08:54:33 mit dir? :P 08:54:36 but netscape burped 08:54:53 concert is in november ... 08:54:58 heh 08:55:29 Do you know any paper that explains how the dictionary internals work? 08:55:55 would a paper explaing what vocs should do suffice ? 08:56:10 after all, the implementation is up to the implementor ... 08:56:33 yes.. 08:56:40 try: dpans94 08:56:45 google? 08:56:51 comes with gforth 08:56:56 hm. ok 08:57:03 try: pinfo gforth 08:57:09 http://www.forth.org/dpans/dpans.html ? 08:57:20 that one should do too 08:58:45 It would be easier if I found a simple implementation in asm, such as yours.. Maybe isforth has something 08:58:46 woss: where did i flee too ? 08:58:50 He's dead. 08:59:01 He meant #forth. 08:59:01 oh yes 08:59:28 voc implementation is usually not done in asm, but hilevel 08:59:31 much simpler ... 08:59:41 oh.. 08:59:47 look at wordlist 08:59:53 then your 3/4 done 09:00:07 compile.1 in isforth 09:00:09 wordlist? 09:00:21 for a simple forth, vocs are not even necessary 09:00:28 optional ... 09:00:31 add on later 09:00:36 from the running system 09:01:10 hm 09:01:26 what are vocs? I mean, what do they dp? 09:01:28 do* 09:01:43 compare them with subdirectories 09:02:09 vocabulary foo 09:02:17 foo definitions 09:02:25 : bar ." burp" ; 09:02:33 forth definitions 09:02:46 bar ??unknown word?? 09:02:50 foo 09:02:51 bar 09:02:57 ( burp ) 09:03:22 additional name spaces ... 09:04:49 i'll look for a simple interpreter 09:05:36 thanks :) 09:05:47 I'm checking isforth.. contains at least some useful things 09:06:23 can't get to it right now 09:06:39 maybe the isforth interpreter resembles the one i was looking for a lot 09:06:48 i've given it to i440r a while ago 09:07:02 coming from my pentium implementation 09:07:16 vocs? 09:07:19 neat 09:07:34 eh ? 09:08:02 but no idea whether i440r used it, or cooked his onw 09:08:03 own 09:10:41 Etaoin: you're from texas ? 09:10:56 Speuler: yes 09:11:04 satellite up- and down ? 09:11:29 um? 09:11:57 thought "sat.net" stands for satellite (up)/down link 09:12:13 could be, but I don't have a satellite connection 09:16:16 will have to leave in a few minutes 09:16:37 :( 09:16:44 Fare well 09:17:00 'll be back in i estimate 2...3 hours 09:17:20 have a look at new site for 'nother cafe 09:17:38 suitability 09:18:18 Mkay. 09:18:24 l8er 09:20:37 --- quit: Speuler ("using sirc version 2.211+KSIRC/1.1") 09:32:51 hey, rob_ert ! 09:33:37 havent u still read the article "forth: an underview"? 09:34:25 an in what language do u plan to implement your 4th? 09:35:00 onetom: thanks 09:35:39 Etaoin: never mind. (but thx 4 what?) 09:36:03 4 that article? 09:36:10 right 09:36:28 u like it? 09:36:41 I'll read it later and tell you 09:36:49 I'm reading some other stuff atm 09:37:09 from the looks of it, it seems like what I've been looking for 09:37:10 like? 09:37:37 what r u reading now? 09:37:54 oh, im happy then :) 09:38:00 "Five Questions about Language Design" by Paul Graham 09:38:58 a http://www.paulgraham.com/langdes.html 09:39:08 hmm, sounds exciting 09:39:26 probably we will need such a thing for forth os 09:39:56 his article on design taste is interesting as well 09:40:51 who is he, anywaY? 09:41:36 he wrote some stuff in lisp for Yahoo.com 09:45:05 apparently when server side web applications were a new idea 09:45:07 ou. lisp 4 yahoo? 09:45:22 what part of yahoo uses lisp? 09:45:34 I dunno. 09:46:18 man learns sg everyday :) 09:46:59 yup 09:49:02 onetom: so, what are you up to now? 09:51:44 1st of all im terribly sleepy today 09:52:21 i fighted w my girlfriend a bit 09:52:40 so i got tired 09:54:14 2nd im trying to make my building control stuff failure safe 09:54:48 that is, it could recover from a communication failure 09:55:25 and it could restore original switch states after reseting the comm. net. 09:55:37 3rd im thinking on forth os 09:55:47 gathering stuff it 09:55:57 okay 09:56:18 like existing 4th processor datasheeets 09:56:26 dont u know about some, by chance? 09:56:37 no 09:56:46 pity 09:56:47 I know just about nothing about forth 09:57:22 besides knowing the syntax and the fact that it's reflective 09:57:37 ..about nothing about... nice structure :) 09:57:56 thank you. 09:57:58 reflective? 09:58:12 I wrote the first half and then took a nap. Then, I wrote the second half 09:58:43 :) i know the effect 10:01:21 infobot answer: reflection is a property of a system that can refer to itself and manipulate its state or rough on your brain 10:03:59 onetom: asm 10:04:06 and no, I haven't read all of it 10:04:32 --- quit: onetom (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 10:04:40 yay 10:04:47 sehr gut.. 10:05:03 --- join: onetom (tom@adsl52070.vnet.hu) joined #forth 10:05:09 wb 10:05:11 onetom: asm 10:05:14 and no, I haven't read all of it 10:06:05 but I'm reading 10:10:14 hope so! :) 10:10:19 and why in asm? 10:10:38 is asm the lang u r the most professional in? 10:10:38 why not? 10:10:59 coz there is sooo much asm 4th implementations outthere 10:11:01 I think so... I also need to practice coding asm in Linux. 10:11:05 Hehe 10:11:12 Well, I'm thinknig about one in BASIC ;) 10:11:14 it was the 1st reason 10:11:15 Just for fun. 10:11:41 the 2nd is: the forth os project needs 4th implementations in other languages 10:11:55 Such as? 10:12:07 like basic, pascal, python, awk, sed ;), lisp ... 10:12:27 BASIC forth... ;) 10:12:28 or even in c would also b okay 10:12:42 neat, isnt it? ;) 10:12:45 It'll be hard to do it in BASIC, I think 10:12:55 u r wrong 10:13:09 Hehe 10:13:12 Show me how to do it :D 10:13:30 implementing a 4th in any language is "pretty" easy 10:13:50 rob_ert: ive shown u how easy 2 do it in 4th 10:13:57 :) 10:13:58 now its your turn 10:14:01 hehe 10:14:05 I'll do my best ;) 10:14:17 show me how easy to do it in basic 10:14:36 I will, don't worry ;) 10:14:41 but, seriously, what is the lang u know the most? 10:14:44 (I won't be able to do it :/ ) 10:14:53 Probably C or asm. 10:15:00 Know BASIC and Pascal pretty well, too. 10:15:21 i have pascal roots 10:16:23 so probably i could create a kernel.pas too 10:16:39 but what about creating it by u? 10:17:51 What do you mean? 10:17:58 I should write it in Pascal? 10:17:58 i also know of a very detailed 4th implementation comparision 10:18:03 yes 10:18:14 exactly! 10:18:18 Hm.. maybe ;) 10:18:32 i would b your 2nd contribution 2 the forth os project ;) 10:18:40 I'm wondering how the dictionary looks... 10:18:51 (the 1st was its name, fosfor ;) 10:18:55 lol 10:19:04 What is that project anyway? 10:19:13 ? 10:19:31 fosfor 10:19:36 umean, what is the forthos prj? 10:19:37 What's the goal? 10:20:14 creating an OS 100% written in 4th 10:20:46 Why do you need forth kernels written in high-level languages? 10:21:07 for portability 10:21:37 (right now u r already working on a faq for the prj ;) 10:21:49 ;) 10:22:07 so, ask mooooore :) 10:22:20 What's the point of an intepreted OS? 10:22:36 ??? 10:22:41 is asm interpreted? 10:23:18 dont forget what i taught u: 4th is the assembly of a 4th processor! 10:23:42 I mean 10:23:58 and im refering to the inner interpreter when sayin 4th 10:23:58 If I run a Pascal program in my Linux machine, that runs your OS, what's the point of that? 10:24:31 well, thats not much fun, tho... 10:24:59 u r able to develop in the unified-forthos also in linux 10:25:13 AAAAND 10:25:15 Who should handle I/O? 10:25:59 u can give pascal minded people a chance to understand 4th internals 10:26:23 AAAAND u give a tool into their hand what they r free to modify 10:28:41 bbl' 10:28:42 what io r u talkin about? 10:28:55 ? 10:28:58 ah 10:29:04 like screen/disk I/O 10:29:19 should the forth OS take care of file system/device drivers? 10:29:26 Or should the intepreter do that? 10:31:31 oh, we can rant such functionalities from already existing os-es 10:31:40 like linux and bsd 10:31:58 and we whould implement those in 4th 10:32:03 So what should the OS do/provide? 10:32:20 it will provide multi* 10:32:33 like any other os 2day 10:33:33 i also thought of implementing a 4th gcc target 10:34:08 but first we should create a reference 4th processor 10:37:47 bbl :) 10:39:01 dont come b wo a working pascal implementation 10:39:12 of my kernel.fs ! :) 11:34:09 --- join: I440r (~mark4@1Cust228.tnt3.bloomington.in.da.uu.net) joined #forth 11:37:13 Login: mark4 11:37:37 Directory: /home/mark4 Name: Mark I Manning IV 11:37:45 plan: 11:37:54 1: Code IsForth 11:38:04 2: Convert Linus 11:38:14 3: Help Linus recode Linux in Forth (about a week) 11:38:21 4: Stop smoking crack 11:38:28 :P~! 11:38:51 ./away brb 11:38:57 heh 11:40:09 well - its a plan :) 11:40:19 thats nice :) 11:41:04 we need posix built upon 4th! 11:43:08 9223372036854775807 11:43:27 the largest signed number useable in isforth 11:43:27 is that ennuff ? 11:43:55 thats a 0 followed by 63 1's heh 11:44:25 there was a bug in the number output that i fixed today 11:44:45 had to add double number bullshit :( 11:44:45 was hoping to avoid that 11:44:56 but -1 u. no longer segfaults heh 11:45:27 the problem was that base @ /mod swap . would alwways end up with a quotient of -1 11:45:40 Hey I440r 11:45:48 and when i did -1 base @ /mod swap . 11:46:00 i would get one digit of remainder and -1 of quotient 11:46:13 hi! 11:46:32 I need to know more about a forth's internals :) 11:46:44 or i should say -1 base @ /mod returned one digit plus a quotient of -1 11:46:57 i.e. we would just keep extracting digits till the -1 hits 0 which it never would heh 11:46:59 --- join: wossname (wossname@HSE-QuebecCity-ppp80344.qc.sympatico.ca) joined #forth 11:47:03 hoorj 11:47:08 moin 11:47:10 robert such as ? 11:47:15 Well 11:47:19 woss!! 11:47:21 How the shit works :) 11:47:28 dont i know you from #debian or something ? 11:47:28 What a dictionary is, and how it works 11:47:38 or is ti #linpeople heh 11:48:12 ok 11:48:33 there is one dictionary 11:48:35 And maybe a little bit about how to do intepretation & compilation. 11:48:44 there are multiple vocabularies in the dictionary usually 11:48:54 the dictionary can mean many different things 11:49:04 dictionary space is where you compile new words 11:49:06 to me the dictionary is all the headers for those words 11:49:28 What does a such header contain? 11:49:37 the "dictionary" can be split up into various vocabularies 11:49:46 the forth vocabulary for instance 11:49:51 has all the core forth words 11:49:59 then you have the assembler vocabulary 11:50:02 etc etc etc 11:50:11 when you type 11:50:14 foo [enter] 11:50:29 forth has to search certain vocabularies for that word 11:50:45 you might have a foo in your forth voc and in your editor voc 11:50:56 which one it finds depends on what the search order is 11:50:59 thats what all that 11:51:08 only forth also assembler definitions also 11:51:12 Aren't there special words, too? 11:51:13 bullshit is all about heh 11:51:20 define special 11:51:20 That can't just be looked up like that 11:51:25 headerless 11:51:29 they have NO headers 11:51:33 noname 11:51:47 that just limits the scope of those words 11:51:51 Hm 11:51:54 What do they do? 11:51:58 ok 11:52:09 lets say i have a FOO sourcefile 11:52:14 somewhere in that file i have 11:52:17 : foo ..... ; 11:52:19 BUT 11:52:39 it would be very bad for any functions outside the FOO sourcefile to actually make a reference to the word foo 11:52:43 i can make that word headerless 11:52:58 it GETS a header but this header is usualy stripped off at the end of the soruce file 11:53:09 OK 11:53:16 But how are for example : and ; handled? 11:53:25 : is a creating word 11:53:30 They must be treated in some special ways, right? 11:53:45 colon parses the input stream for the next space delimited string 11:53:50 and words such as create, does>, , 11:53:54 : foo aaa bbb ccc ; 11:54:04 in this example colon sees "foo" 11:54:16 it creates a new header (in the dictionary) for the word foo 11:54:23 it then switches us into compile mode 11:54:26 thats all it does 11:54:30 well in isforth anyway 11:54:32 OK 11:54:38 creates the header and put us in compile mode 11:54:47 we are now back to running in the inner loop 11:54:50 what about 'create', 'does>' and ',' then? 11:54:50 quit and interpret 11:54:58 ill get to those 11:55:00 OK 11:55:04 create is a creating word too 11:55:10 : uses create 11:55:17 : : create ;uses nest ; 11:55:33 all compiled (non coded) definitions start like this 11:55:36 call someword 11:55:40 body of word is here 11:55:46 for a variable its a call to dovariable 11:55:52 for a constant its a call to doconstant 11:56:00 for a colon definition its a call to nest 11:56:07 hm 11:56:15 what does create really do? 11:56:15 create ALWAYS creates a header with a cfa thats a call to dovariable 11:56:16 always 11:56:22 does it take stack parameters? 11:56:26 does it return any? 11:56:38 create creates the new header and puts a "call dovariable" in the code field address of the new word 11:56:47 no parameters 11:56:48 dovariable? 11:56:50 no return variables 11:57:04 dovariable is the word to hadle variables 11:57:07 call dovariable 11:57:10 dd xxxxx 11:57:17 the call leaves a return address on the stack 11:57:28 i.e. the body field address of the variable 11:57:36 we can now @ or ! to that address 11:57:48 so : : create ;uses nest ; 11:57:50 creates the header 11:57:51 BUT 11:57:55 how's the variable space allocated? 11:58:07 : variable create 2 allot l 11:58:12 s/l/; 11:58:18 : variable create 2 allot ; 11:58:19