00:00:00 --- log: started forth/02.04.27 01:51:07 --- join: gilbertbsd (~gilbert@max2-92.dacor.net) joined #forth 01:51:18 hello anybody up? 02:48:22 --- nick: gilbertbsd -> gilbertBSD 03:12:49 --- join: Speuler (~k@a161161.upc-a.chello.nl) joined #forth 03:12:56 'morning 03:13:02 4th: 3 . 03:13:06 Speuler: 3 03:13:29 4th: s" ls -l /F*" system 03:13:34 Speuler: SYSTEM is disabled for safety reasons 03:13:55 4th: ' system . 03:13:59 Speuler: 1075037712 03:15:24 4th: 'z ' system >name name>string drop c! 03:15:41 4th: s" ls -l /F*" system 03:15:45 Speuler: SYSTEM is disabled for safety reasons 03:16:01 4th: s" ls -l /F*" zystem 03:16:05 Speuler: in file included from *the terminal*:-1 03:16:06 Speuler: /tmp/fsock-sh-server.request.tmp:45: Undefined word 03:16:06 Speuler: s" ls -l /F*" zystem 03:16:06 Speuler: ^^^^^^ 03:16:06 Speuler: Backtrace: 03:16:07 Speuler: $4011D188 throw 03:16:09 Speuler: $401271E8 no.extensions 03:16:39 4th: ' system >name name>string type 03:16:44 Speuler: system 03:16:50 4th: ' zystem >name name>string type 03:16:54 Speuler: in file included from *the terminal*:-1 03:16:54 Speuler: /tmp/fsock-sh-server.request.tmp:45: Undefined word 03:16:54 Speuler: ' zystem >name name>string type 03:16:54 Speuler: ^^^^^^ 03:16:54 Speuler: Backtrace: 03:16:56 Speuler: $4011D0BC throw 03:16:58 Speuler: $4011D0D4 (') 03:17:29 4th: 122 ' system >name name>string drop c! 03:17:39 4th: ' zystem >name name>string type 03:17:43 Speuler: in file included from *the terminal*:-1 03:17:48 Speuler: /tmp/fsock-sh-server.request.tmp:45: Undefined word 03:17:48 Speuler: ' zystem >name name>string type 03:17:48 Speuler: ^^^^^^ 03:17:48 Speuler: Backtrace: 03:17:49 Speuler: $4011D0BC throw 03:17:49 Speuler: $4011D0D4 (') 03:19:42 4th: ' system >name . 03:19:46 Speuler: 1075037696 03:20:22 see system 03:20:45 4th: see system 03:20:49 Speuler: : system 03:20:50 Speuler: cr 03:20:50 Speuler: ." SYSTEM is disabled for safety reasons" ; 03:20:58 4th: see (system) 03:21:03 Speuler: Code (system) 03:21:03 Speuler: ( $804CBA8 ) mov esi , 204 [esp] \ $8B $B4 $24 $4 $2 $0 $0 03:21:03 Speuler: ( $804CBAF ) mov edi , 8054708 \ $8B $3D $8 $47 $5 $8 03:21:03 Speuler: ( $804CBB5 ) mov ebx , 4 [esi] \ $8B $5E $4 03:21:03 Speuler: ( $804CBB8 ) call 805117C \ $E8 $BF $45 $0 $0 03:21:05 Speuler: ( $804CBBD ) add esp , # -12 \ $83 $C4 $F4 03:21:07 Speuler: ( $804CBC0 ) add esp , # -4 \ $83 $C4 $FC 03:21:09 Speuler: ( $804CBC3 ) push , # 1 \ $6A $1 03:21:11 Speuler: ( $804CBC5 ) push ebp \ $55 03:21:35 4th: : SpeulerWasHere (system) throw ; 03:21:50 4th: s" ls -l /F*" SpeulerWasHere 03:21:54 Speuler: in file included from *the terminal*:-1 03:21:54 Speuler: /tmp/fsock-sh-server.request.tmp:45: Undefined word 03:21:54 Speuler: s" ls -l /F*" SpeulerWasHere 03:21:54 Speuler: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 03:21:54 Speuler: Backtrace: 03:21:56 Speuler: $4011D188 throw 03:21:58 Speuler: $401271E8 no.extensions 03:22:11 4th: s" ls -l /F*" (system) throw 03:22:15 Speuler: -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 0 ÁPR 26 04:54 /FBI-observed machine 03:22:46 4th: s" touch /SpeulerWasHere" (system) throw 03:22:51 Speuler: touch: /SpeulerWasHere: Permission denied 03:23:20 4th: s" echo $UID" (system) throw 03:23:24 Speuler: 1009 03:23:42 4th: s" pwd" (system) throw 03:23:47 Speuler: /home/guest/www/forth/fsock 03:23:55 4th: s" echo ~" (system) throw 03:23:59 Speuler: /home/guest 03:24:13 4th: s" ls ~" (system) throw 03:24:17 Speuler: HELLO.doc 03:24:17 Speuler: Mail 03:24:17 Speuler: mbox 03:24:17 Speuler: pdf 03:24:17 Speuler: the bat crack 03:24:19 Speuler: www 03:24:21 Speuler: x 03:24:42 4th: xxx 5 4 + . ; xxx 03:24:47 Speuler: in file included from *the terminal*:-1 03:24:47 Speuler: /tmp/fsock-sh-server.request.tmp:45: Undefined word 03:24:47 Speuler: xxx 5 4 + . ; xxx 03:24:47 Speuler: ^^^ 03:24:47 Speuler: Backtrace: 03:24:49 Speuler: $4011D188 throw 03:24:51 Speuler: $401271E8 no.extensions 03:24:56 see : 03:25:08 4th: see : 03:25:12 Speuler: : : 03:25:13 Speuler: header (:noname) ; 03:25:23 4th: order 03:25:28 Speuler: Forth Forth Root Forth 03:26:08 lastxt >name name>string type 03:26:39 4th: lastxt >name name>string type 03:26:43 Speuler: simulated-key 03:27:00 4th: see simulated-key 03:27:04 Speuler: : simulated-key 03:27:05 Speuler: key-input count dup 0= -rot + >key-input @ u<= or ABORT" 03:27:05 Speuler: No more simulated key presses left!" >key-input @ dup c@ swap char+ 03:27:05 Speuler: >key-input ! ; 03:27:40 4th: s" last -10" (system) throw 03:27:45 Speuler: guest pts/11 ex.x Sat Apr 27 04:02 still logged in 03:27:45 Speuler: tom pts/0 ht2.x Sat Apr 27 03:58 still logged in 03:27:45 Speuler: tom tty1 Sat Apr 27 03:44 - 03:45 (00:00) 03:27:45 Speuler: reboot system boot 2.2.19-ide Sat Apr 27 03:43 (08:43) 03:27:45 Speuler: reboot system boot 2.2.19-ide Sat Apr 27 03:41 (00:00) 03:27:47 Speuler: tom pts/0 ht2.x Fri Apr 26 23:14 - crash (04:27) 03:27:49 Speuler: guest pts/11 ex.x Fri Apr 26 22:47 - crash (04:53) 03:27:51 Speuler: tom pts/0 ht2.x Fri Apr 26 22:42 - 23:14 (00:31) 03:27:53 Speuler: reboot system boot 2.2.19-ide Fri Apr 26 22:37 (05:03) 03:27:55 Speuler: tom ftp ivy.x Fri Apr 26 11:33 - 11:39 (00:05) 03:28:41 4th: s" ls ~/.." (system) throw 03:28:46 Speuler: common 03:28:46 Speuler: eva 03:28:46 Speuler: exp 03:28:46 Speuler: gabor 03:28:46 Speuler: gpapp 03:28:48 Speuler: guest 03:28:50 Speuler: gutyka 03:28:52 Speuler: ha 03:28:54 Speuler: hn 03:28:56 Speuler: justin 03:29:10 4th: s" ls -l ~/.." (system) throw 03:29:14 Speuler: total 92 03:29:15 Speuler: drwxrwxrwx 6 root root 4096 OKT 17 2001 common 03:29:15 Speuler: drwxr-sr-x 4 eva eva 4096 JAN 9 2001 eva 03:29:15 Speuler: drwxr-sr-x 19 exp exp 4096 FEB 28 02:56 exp 03:29:15 Speuler: drwxr-sr-x 4 guest guest 4096 JAN 7 2001 gabor 03:29:16 Speuler: drwxr-sr-x 3 gpapp gpapp 4096 SZE 19 2001 gpapp 03:29:18 Speuler: drwxr-sr-x 16 guest guest 4096 ÁPR 27 05:58 guest 03:29:20 Speuler: drwxr-sr-x 4 gutyka gutyka 4096 JAN 13 02:38 gutyka 03:29:22 Speuler: drwxr-s--x 89 ha ha 4096 ÁPR 24 00:10 ha 03:29:24 Speuler: drwxr-sr-x 2 hn hn 4096 OKT 1 2001 hn 03:29:59 4th: s" chattr +a ~/*" (system) throw 03:30:03 Speuler: chattr: Operation not permitted while setting flags on /home/guest/HELLO.doc 03:30:04 Speuler: chattr: Operation not permitted while setting flags on /home/guest/Mail 03:30:04 Speuler: chattr: Operation not permitted while setting flags on /home/guest/mbox 03:30:04 Speuler: chattr: Operation not permitted while setting flags on /home/guest/pdf 03:30:04 Speuler: chattr: Operation not permitted while setting flags on /home/guest/the bat crack 03:30:05 Speuler: chattr: Operation not permitted while setting flags on /home/guest/www 03:30:07 Speuler: chattr: Operation not permitted while setting flags on /home/guest/x 03:31:23 4th: s" ping6 localhost -i '; touch /xxx'" (system) throw 03:31:27 Speuler: ping6: socket: Address family not supported by protocol 03:32:23 4th: s" /sbin/lsmod" (system) throw 03:32:27 Speuler: Module Size Used by 03:32:28 Speuler: soundcore 2440 0 (autoclean) (unused) 03:32:28 Speuler: af_packet 6132 5 (autoclean) 03:32:28 Speuler: ip_masq_raudio 2936 0 (unused) 03:32:28 Speuler: ip_masq_quake 1356 0 (unused) 03:32:29 Speuler: smbfs 24932 0 (unused) 03:32:31 Speuler: vfat 9408 0 (unused) 03:32:33 Speuler: nfs 40548 0 (unused) 03:32:35 Speuler: lockd 41744 0 [nfs] 03:32:37 Speuler: sunrpc 57796 0 [nfs lockd] 03:33:14 4th: s" /sbin/ifconfig" (system) throw 03:33:19 Speuler: eth0 Link encap:Ethernet HWaddr 00:40:F6:34:EC:BA 03:33:19 Speuler: inet addr:213.163.52.205 Bcast:213.163.52.255 Mask:255.255.255.0 03:33:19 Speuler: UP BROADCAST RUNNING MULTICAST MTU:1500 Metric:1 03:33:19 Speuler: RX packets:9697 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 frame:0 03:33:19 Speuler: TX packets:10626 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 carrier:0 03:33:21 Speuler: collisions:0 txqueuelen:100 03:33:23 Speuler: Interrupt:10 Base address:0x300 03:33:25 Speuler: eth1 Link encap:Ethernet HWaddr 00:00:B4:94:41:C4 03:33:27 Speuler: inet addr:10.1.1.1 Bcast:10.1.1.255 Mask:255.255.255.0 03:34:13 4th: s" /sbin/ifconfig eth1" (system) throw 03:34:17 Speuler: eth1 Link encap:Ethernet HWaddr 00:00:B4:94:41:C4 03:34:17 Speuler: inet addr:10.1.1.1 Bcast:10.1.1.255 Mask:255.255.255.0 03:34:17 Speuler: UP BROADCAST RUNNING MULTICAST MTU:1500 Metric:1 03:34:17 Speuler: RX packets:1355 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 frame:0 03:34:17 Speuler: TX packets:2110 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 carrier:0 03:34:19 Speuler: collisions:0 txqueuelen:100 03:34:21 Speuler: Interrupt:5 Base address:0xe000 03:35:14 4th: s" /sbin/ipchains -L -n" (system) throw 03:35:18 Speuler: ipchains: Permission denied 03:36:30 4th: s" nmap -sP 10.1.1.1-255" (system) throw 03:36:34 Speuler: Starting nmap V. 2.12 by Fyodor (fyodor@dhp.com, www.insecure.org/nmap/) 03:36:34 Speuler: Host ex.x (10.1.1.1) appears to be up. 03:36:34 Speuler: Host ha.x (10.1.1.5) appears to be up. 03:36:34 Speuler: Host lap.x (10.1.1.6) appears to be up. 03:36:34 Speuler: Host hp.x (10.1.1.9) appears to be up. 03:36:36 Speuler: Nmap run completed -- 255 IP addresses (4 hosts up) scanned in 1 second 03:37:01 4th: s" nmap lap.x" (system) throw 03:37:05 Speuler: Starting nmap V. 2.12 by Fyodor (fyodor@dhp.com, www.insecure.org/nmap/) 03:37:06 Speuler: Interesting ports on lap.x (10.1.1.6): 03:37:06 Speuler: Port State Protocol Service 03:37:06 Speuler: 135 open tcp loc-srv 03:37:06 Speuler: 139 open tcp netbios-ssn 03:37:07 Speuler: 6000 open tcp X11 03:37:10 Speuler: Nmap run completed -- 1 IP address (1 host up) scanned in 2 seconds 03:37:52 4th: smbclient -M hp.x "hi there" 03:37:56 Speuler: in file included from *the terminal*:-1 03:37:57 Speuler: /tmp/fsock-sh-server.request.tmp:45: Undefined word 03:37:57 Speuler: smbclient -M hp.x "hi there" 03:37:57 Speuler: ^^^^^^^^^ 03:37:57 Speuler: Backtrace: 03:37:58 Speuler: $4011D188 throw 03:38:00 Speuler: $401271E8 no.extensions 03:38:33 4th: s" smbclient -M hp.x 'hi there'" (system) . 03:38:37 Speuler: Terminated. 03:39:19 4th: s" cat /etc/hosts" (system) . 03:39:23 Speuler: #-- LCM begin 03:39:24 Speuler: 10.1.1.1 ex.x ex 03:39:24 Speuler: #-- LCM end 03:39:24 Speuler: # 03:39:24 Speuler: # hosts This file describes a number of hostname-to-address 03:39:25 Speuler: # mappings for the TCP/IP subsystem. It is mostly 03:39:27 Speuler: # used at boot time, when no name servers are running. 03:39:29 Speuler: # On small systems, this file can be used instead of a 03:39:32 Speuler: # "named" name server. Just add the names, addresses 03:39:33 Speuler: # and any aliases to this file... 03:39:55 4th: s" fuser -n tcp 53" (system) . 03:39:59 Speuler: 0 03:40:09 4th: s" netstat" (system) . 03:40:13 Speuler: Active Internet connections (w/o servers) 03:40:14 Speuler: Proto Recv-Q Send-Q Local Address Foreign Address State 03:40:14 Speuler: tcp 0 0 ex.x:764 ex.x:840 TIME_WAIT 03:40:14 Speuler: tcp 0 0 ex.x:netbios-ssn ha.x:1025 ESTABLISHED 03:40:14 Speuler: tcp 0 0 ex.x:netbios-ssn hp.x:1025 ESTABLISHED 03:40:15 Speuler: tcp 0 0 adsl52205.vnet.hu:3261 stampede.org:9000 ESTABLISHED 03:40:17 Speuler: tcp 0 0 adsl52205.vnet.hu:3260 www.goodwill.hu:ircd ESTABLISHED 03:40:19 Speuler: tcp 0 0 adsl52205.vnet.hu:3247 stampede.org:9000 ESTABLISHED 03:40:21 Speuler: tcp 0 17584 ex.x:3128 ht2.x:1130 ESTABLISHED 03:40:23 Speuler: tcp 0 0 ex.x:3334 ex.x:3126 ESTABLISHED 03:41:16 4th: s" last" (system) . 03:41:20 Speuler: guest pts/11 ex.x Sat Apr 27 04:02 still logged in 03:41:21 Speuler: tom pts/0 ht2.x Sat Apr 27 03:58 still logged in 03:41:21 Speuler: tom tty1 Sat Apr 27 03:44 - 03:45 (00:00) 03:41:21 Speuler: reboot system boot 2.2.19-ide Sat Apr 27 03:43 (08:57) 03:41:21 Speuler: reboot system boot 2.2.19-ide Sat Apr 27 03:41 (00:00) 03:41:22 Speuler: tom pts/0 ht2.x Fri Apr 26 23:14 - crash (04:27) 03:41:24 Speuler: guest pts/11 ex.x Fri Apr 26 22:47 - crash (04:53) 03:41:26 Speuler: tom pts/0 ht2.x Fri Apr 26 22:42 - 23:14 (00:31) 03:41:28 Speuler: reboot system boot 2.2.19-ide Fri Apr 26 22:37 (05:03) 03:41:30 Speuler: tom ftp ivy.x Fri Apr 26 11:33 - 11:39 (00:05) 03:42:38 4th: "ls /home/tom" (system) drop 03:42:43 Speuler: in file included from *the terminal*:-1 03:42:43 Speuler: /tmp/fsock-sh-server.request.tmp:45: Undefined word 03:42:43 Speuler: "ls /home/tom" (system) drop 03:42:43 Speuler: ^^^ 03:42:43 Speuler: Backtrace: 03:42:44 Speuler: $4011D188 throw 03:42:46 Speuler: $401271E8 no.extensions 03:42:51 4th: s" ls /home/tom" (system) drop 03:42:55 Speuler: #newfile.lyx# 03:42:55 Speuler: 00000000.bif 03:42:55 Speuler: 00000000.raw 03:42:57 Speuler: 023_22.JPG 03:42:59 Speuler: 1 03:43:01 Speuler: 11_bad_link 03:43:03 Speuler: 2 03:43:05 Speuler: 2001_03_15_163725_shot.jpg 03:43:07 Speuler: 2002-February.txt 03:43:09 Speuler: 3 03:43:27 --- quit: gilbertBSD ("xchat exiting..") 03:43:44 4th: s" sendfile *.jpg l@internetcafe.wox.org" (system) drop 03:43:49 Speuler: sh: sendfile: command not found 03:47:54 1tom: i think it would be a good idea to close sunrpc on your box 03:50:13 1tom: your irc server tells me i have to tell you to configure it 03:52:54 4th: 5 0 [do] [i] . [loop] 03:52:58 Speuler: 0 1 2 3 4 03:53:16 4th: [begin] key drop [again] 03:53:20 Speuler: in file included from *the terminal*:-1 03:53:20 Speuler: /tmp/fsock-sh-server.request.tmp:45: No more simulated key presses left! 03:53:20 Speuler: [begin] key drop [again] 03:53:20 Speuler: ^^^ 03:53:20 Speuler: Backtrace: 03:53:22 Speuler: $4011B640 throw 03:53:24 Speuler: $4013C868 03:53:51 4th: [begin] 1000 ms [again] 03:53:55 Speuler: Terminated. 03:54:20 4th: 5 . 03:54:24 Speuler: 5 03:55:42 4th: s" cat /proc/self/cmdline" (system) drop 03:55:46 Speuler: cat 03:57:05 4th: s" set | grep PPID" (system) drop 03:57:10 Speuler: PPID=19195 03:57:12 4th: s" set | grep PPID" (system) drop 03:57:16 Speuler: PPID=19211 03:57:46 4th: s" kill -SIGSTOP `set | grep PPID`" (system) drop 03:57:51 Speuler: sh: kill: PPID=19259: no such pid 03:58:32 4th: s" killall -SIGSTOP bot" (system) drop 03:58:37 Speuler: SIGSTOP: unknown signal; killall -l lists signals. 03:58:52 4th: s" killall -STOP bot" (system) drop 03:58:56 Speuler: bot: no process killed 03:59:11 4th: s" ps" (system) drop 03:59:15 Speuler: PID TTY TIME CMD 03:59:16 Speuler: 3691 pts/20 00:00:00 bash 03:59:16 Speuler: 10359 pts/20 00:00:00 server 03:59:16 Speuler: 19375 pts/20 00:00:00 gforth 03:59:16 Speuler: 19376 pts/20 00:00:00 sleep 03:59:17 Speuler: 19377 pts/20 00:00:00 ps 03:59:34 4th: s" killall -STOP gforth" (system) drop 03:59:38 Speuler: gforth(5014): Operation not permitted 03:59:54 4th: s" killall -STOP server" (system) drop 04:00:17 4th: s" 4 ." (system) drop 04:14:57 --- join: Soap` (flop@203-96-99-90.dialup.xtra.co.nz) joined #forth 04:31:54 Speuler: :/ 04:33:14 --- quit: Soap` (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 04:33:14 --- quit: Frac (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 04:33:53 --- join: Soap` (flop@203-96-99-90.dialup.xtra.co.nz) joined #forth 04:33:53 --- join: Frac (tng@h24-77-171-228.ok.shawcable.net) joined #forth 04:36:36 Speuler: what else should i disable beside system & (system) ? 04:43:17 hi 1tom 04:44:03 1tom: consider running the bot in a chrooted environment 04:45:29 ' system >name name>string blank \ make the word SYSTEM not findable 04:45:30 ' (system) >name name>string blank 04:45:43 Speuler: iwas already thought about that 04:45:57 but i dont really know, how could i do that 04:45:59 1tom: just redefining dangerous words may not be enough 04:46:09 iknow 04:46:19 one might get the xt of the redefined word, and execute it 04:46:20 coz some could look up the dict 04:46:31 for the xt, yes 04:46:55 or, use a sealed vocabulary 04:47:06 Speuler: ? 04:47:20 instead of disallowing things, define words for the things you allow 04:47:51 how do u imagine that? 04:48:09 vocabulary foo 04:48:14 should i create a custom *.fi file? 04:48:17 ahhha 04:48:20 foo definitions 04:48:26 : .... ; 04:48:28 how dumb i am :) 04:48:33 foo seal 04:49:12 in the next stage 1 plan 2 make vocs 04:49:26 coz gforth will b the server process itself 04:49:47 and it will maintain separate vocs for the users 04:49:57 that i stop the bot after playing is not done out of malignance, i hope you understood 04:50:42 sure, sure 04:50:45 have you tried to delete the /FBI* file ? 04:50:48 uve already told it 04:50:58 and i also saw it 04:51:19 not yet, thats fun :) 04:51:53 hint: file is set "immutable" 04:52:24 i saw u made things like chattr 04:52:40 dont forget, u were logged :) 04:52:50 not by me, but clog 04:53:28 however that bot is also able 2 accept /msg-es from yesterday 04:53:31 i'd also DENY packets to portmap 04:53:56 at least 04:54:07 but i also log those manually 04:54:12 probably telnet, rlogin etc too 04:54:36 i've noticed. 04:54:43 everything is open on your box 04:54:58 coz i have to access the machine from outside 04:55:07 from possibly anywhere 04:55:15 no reason to leave everything open ... 04:55:56 ssh, http, smtp, maybe pop3 should be enough 04:56:13 don't telnet over internet 04:56:18 use ssh 04:56:33 but what if there is nothing else available? 04:56:44 then don't use it 04:57:00 there are ssh clients for windows too 04:57:04 but what if i have 2 ;(( 04:57:05 putty.exe is one 04:57:10 iknow it 04:57:25 using telnet is like giving your password away 04:57:28 but that was not always available 04:57:33 (earlier @ least) 04:57:42 Speuler: iknow 04:58:01 i discourage use of telnet, by blocking port 23 04:58:13 but like leaving our front door unlock is like just enviting any1 04:58:34 and still, out front door is usually open all the year... 04:58:49 coz its an area like that.. 04:58:51 no need to disable "system" in bot if you use telnet :) 04:59:12 Speuler: "why? do u know my password?" 04:59:24 u have 2 sniff it somehow 1st 04:59:27 "internet" in "an area like that" means the world 05:00:18 dont think so 05:01:01 robbers and the alike attack important building 05:01:07 so as crackers 05:01:30 not true 05:01:36 s/building/buildings/ 05:01:54 some crack not-well-secured machines, as relay to attacks on more important sites 05:02:04 but, come on, what is the proability of sniffing my password 05:02:10 from faaar away? 05:02:26 iknow that, iknow that 05:02:27 a friend's machine has been broken into recently 05:02:39 and 'bout 50 gbyte data erased 05:02:46 what kind of machine was it? 05:02:53 he didn't run a high-profile site 05:02:59 and where was that box located? 05:03:04 ahha 05:03:06 on the table 05:03:16 :) 05:03:25 in what kind of ip domain? 05:03:29 what os? 05:03:29 with a wire to a cable modem 05:03:35 213.x.x.x 05:03:36 linux 05:03:42 lol 05:04:54 so it was a general customer of a cable net ISP? 05:04:59 yep. 05:05:14 his machine was cracked from a login on another cracked machine 05:05:16 but was his password sniffed? 05:05:32 nope. exploit of buggy program 05:05:40 thats it. 05:05:51 so tell me more about telnet insecurity plz 05:06:15 session AND login/password go over the net unencrypted 05:06:18 does it really dangerous through the internet? 05:06:23 AAAAND? 05:06:41 anyone one the route, running an automated password scanner, gets it 05:07:19 but that 1 should have such a program running on 05:07:26 oh well 05:07:33 the various ISP's routers 05:07:36 not just one i figure 05:07:50 routers often badly configured 05:08:11 i got packages on my segment which shouldn't have been there at all 05:08:14 and many of those routers have a special sw 05:08:40 so as i 05:08:49 samba packages 05:09:02 from the ISP's gateway :) 05:09:14 all 135:139 are blocked here, no log. too many of those. 05:09:55 c 05:10:24 and r u able 2 fire up a pwd scanner remotely on a win machine? 05:10:53 can run a password scanner on a unix system too ... 05:11:20 i know a provider with weak passwords 05:11:23 coz i far as i c, most routers r win machines @ ISP's or cisco routeres or very securely configured bsd's (or linuxes) 05:12:07 even their catalysts were accessable (still got session log :) 05:12:20 Speuler: runing a pwd scanner on a *nix host is not extraordinary 05:12:33 thats why i asked u about win boxes? 05:12:34 . 05:12:50 i know very little 'bout win 05:13:00 nah 05:13:04 thats it 05:13:09 progs should be available 05:13:14 no 05:13:17 remote start depends on the system 05:13:27 windows doesnt support remote starts 05:13:59 probably need backdoor, pcanywhere, or the like 05:14:11 probably, yes 05:14:34 but thats already way weired... 05:15:12 'll get moving 05:15:25 k 05:15:29 l8er 05:15:31 will u kill my bot 05:15:36 any further 05:15:41 why should i ? 05:15:47 if i run it w system 05:15:54 and (system) disabled? 05:16:06 i could try 05:16:17 k :)) 05:16:17 seal the vos 05:16:18 voc 05:16:27 and i shouldn't have any reason to kill it 05:16:30 but i dont want a crap here 05:16:58 anyway, u r also able 2 ssh in... 05:17:12 i allow it 2 many ppl here 05:17:35 so i dont really think i should disable it too much in the bot 05:17:41 coz i trust U 05:22:22 Speuler: in file included from *the terminal*:-1 05:22:23 Speuler: /tmp/fsock-sh-server.request.tmp:46: Undefined word 05:22:23 Speuler: s" killall -STOP server" (system) drop 05:22:23 Speuler: ^^^^^^^^ 05:22:23 Speuler: Backtrace: 05:22:27 Speuler: $4011D188 throw 05:22:29 Speuler: $401271E8 no.extensions 05:22:31 Speuler: in file included from *the terminal*:-1 05:22:33 Speuler: /tmp/fsock-sh-server.request.tmp:46: Undefined word 05:22:35 Speuler: s" 4 ." (system) drop 05:22:37 Speuler: ^^^^^^^^ 05:22:39 Speuler: Backtrace: 05:23:00 twas a server restart :) 07:33:50 --- join: futhin (~thin@h24-64-174-2.cg.shawcable.net) joined #forth 07:38:26 futhin: hi 07:43:14 hi onetom 07:43:16 how is it going? 08:03:54 --- join: rob_ert (~robert@h237n2fls31o965.telia.com) joined #forth 08:28:41 futhin: theres a friend here and am migrating his old machine 2 his new 1 08:29:03 futhin: anyway, check the logs. i made the 4th bot more secure 08:29:17 ah 08:29:20 futhin: and it also have a "virtual keyboard" so u can test 08:29:39 interactive algorithms too w it 08:32:22 ? 08:32:38 sec n i ll show u 08:33:04 g4 s" test" set-input 0 append-char s" asdqwe" append-input : in-test begin key dup while emit repeat ; in-test .s 08:33:18 onetom: test<1> 0 08:33:47 g4 s" test" set-input 0 append-char s" asdqwe" append-input key-input count type 08:33:51 onetom: test 08:34:03 g4 s" test" set-input char | append-char s" asdqwe" append-input key-input count type 08:34:07 onetom: test|asdqwe 08:41:49 --- join: klooie (kloo@213-84-79-23.adsl.xs4all.nl) joined #forth 08:41:53 hey. 08:41:58 Hi :) 08:43:05 a friend who programmed a little forth back when the c64 was current has kindly given me his copy of 'starting forth'. :) 08:43:27 Cool 08:43:33 I have c64forth :) 08:43:52 * klooie just finished reading it. 08:44:45 i'm not really sure what to do with forth, apart from admiring its cleverness from a distance. :) 08:46:23 Hehe 08:46:27 I have the same feeling 08:46:31 rob_ert, would you know what that forth inside linux kernel space is called? 08:48:09 Nope... didn't even know there was one. 08:49:38 Rick Hohensee's H3rL .. 08:50:05 now to find the actual code. 08:50:13 i imagine it may be fun to play with. 08:51:09 Kernel space forth... mmm... crash... 08:52:27 yup. 08:52:30 rob_ert: you don't think much of forth? 08:54:06 futhin: Well, admit forth isn't totally idiot-proof :) 08:54:11 Bugs can occur, right? 08:54:25 And if you do it without protection, hehe 08:55:28 forth isn't idiot-proof at all, i daresay. 09:04:00 forth can have protection, but it usually doesn't :) 09:04:43 --- join: herkamire (~jason@ip68-9-58-81.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 09:04:51 --- quit: futhin ("gotta go") 09:05:20 Hey herk 09:18:47 hey :) 09:19:32 hey, where's my $@#$ bot? 09:20:09 I didn't steal it... 09:20:51 --- join: sif (~siforth@ip68-9-58-81.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 09:20:51 Type sif: (or /msg sif to play in private) 09:21:13 Welcome back, sif :)= 09:21:39 ahh, a typo in my init script 09:22:04 How do I change my system's time in Linux? 09:22:48 date -s 09:22:48 --- quit: sif (Remote closed the connection) 09:23:12 then hwclock I think. it sets the hardware clock to the system clock 09:23:25 I haven't figured out how to set the time zone yet 09:23:33 OK :) 09:23:46 --- join: sif (~siforth@ip68-9-58-81.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 09:23:46 Type sif: (or /msg sif to play in private) 09:32:44 let me know if you figure out how to set the timezone 09:43:41 it depends on the distribution of course, but linking /etc/localtime to the applicable file in the zoneinfo database is common. 09:45:07 --- join: I440r (~mark4@1Cust55.tnt2.bloomington.in.da.uu.net) joined #forth 09:45:34 bongo! 09:45:45 hey I440r. 09:45:50 klooie == new person in #forth ? 09:45:53 hi :) 09:46:05 new again you could say. 09:46:16 heh 09:46:20 i remember you from earlier times though. :) 09:46:27 what nick were you using ? 09:46:30 this one ? 09:46:32 yep, this very same. 09:46:37 im getting old :P 09:46:41 i forget things heh 09:46:48 nah, i was only here a few times. 09:47:11 having been gifted a copy of 'starting forth' prompted my return. 09:47:36 aha 09:47:49 starting forth is a very good book to learn from 09:47:56 good book, too bad it stops right where things get really interesting. 09:48:11 (defining words, compiling words, etc) 09:49:02 hehe 09:49:05 well 09:49:07 i suppose i'll have to try and write some actual code with your isforth. :) 09:49:19 its trying to teach you the very basics of forth 09:49:23 * klooie nods. 09:49:37 most of which i'd already picked up from the gforth documentation and some web tutorial stuff. 09:49:40 defining words are words you create that in turn create new classes of word 09:49:51 thats fairly advanced 09:50:03 yes, i was surprised by that. 09:50:18 defining words althou "advanced" are NOT complex 09:50:25 once you understand certain things 09:50:31 it's the foundation of object-oriented programming really, to associate functions with their own data areas. 09:50:43 like. all words basically have 2 parts to them. the code that gets executed and a header 09:50:52 the header is sort of like a symbol table 09:51:43 * I440r doesnt like oop :) 09:51:43 *nod* the book has some explanation of the dictionary, cfa, pfa, and so on. 09:51:57 rite - but thats old hehe 09:52:13 cfa is the code field address. pfa is now called the body i believe 09:52:14 yeah, threaded forth, right? 09:52:26 all forths are threaded 09:52:36 you can compile forth code though? 09:52:37 its to do with the HEADERS though 09:52:51 forth code is very easy to compile hehe 09:53:00 let me explain a header 09:53:04 --- join: tathi (~tathi@ip68-9-58-81.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth 09:53:11 a basic header MIGHT look something like this 09:53:16 some_word: 09:53:23 pointer-to-previous-header 09:53:35 llength-byte-of-name-field 09:53:42 "name field" 09:53:48 pointer-to-code-field 09:53:52 thats it 09:54:00 each header points to the previously defined header 09:54:05 they are a chain 09:54:16 forth knows where the last header is. but not where any others are 09:54:19 whenyou type 09:54:23 foo [enter] 09:54:38 forth searches back through the chain of headers for a word called foo 09:54:49 if it finds it it fetches the pointer-to-code-field 09:54:53 and executes that code 09:55:10 unless we are in compile mode. in which case it stores the address of the code field at here 09:55:14 it commas it 09:55:21 i.e. it compiles it 09:55:30 right, that's what the last chapter of the book talks about. 09:55:33 compiled forth is basically lists of pointers to code 09:56:02 and about immediate words that can use the compile word to basically comma stuff in the .. body? 09:56:19 ok let me show you an example 09:56:44 : foo create blah blah blah ; 09:56:49 foo is a creating word. 09:57:01 i can now say foo fudge 09:57:11 and the word foo will create a word called fudge 09:57:12 * klooie nods. 09:57:24 create fudge 09:57:25 0 , 09:57:32 i created a word called fudge 09:57:41 thenm i compiled a 0 into its body 09:57:49 lets look a bit deeeper at it 09:57:53 fudge: 09:57:55 erm 09:57:57 fudge_header: 09:58:03 dd previous_header 09:58:08 db 5 09:58:11 db 'fudge' 09:58:17 dd fudge-code 09:58:20 fudge-code: 09:58:25 call dovariable 09:58:27 dd 0 09:58:41 when you CREATE a word. it 'uses' dovariable 09:58:52 all newly created words are assumed to be variables ehhe 09:59:09 if this is wrong then you have to patch that call dovariable to be say. call doconstant or what ever 09:59:13 hmm, why? 09:59:28 convienience 09:59:30 it simplifies things somewhat heh - 09:59:37 okay. :) 09:59:37 yes. good way of putting it 09:59:57 ok so 10:00:00 when i do 10:00:01 fudge 10:00:21 forth searches the dictionary. finds the header for fudge. jumps to the address fudge-code 10:00:26 which calls dovariable 10:00:54 dovariable leaves the address of the body of the variable being referenced on the stack 10:01:03 right. 10:01:07 the return address of the call instruction is that address 10:01:16 so in this example dovariable can be a NOOP 10:01:23 ok 10:01:30 lets look at a different example 10:01:33 colon!!! 10:01:38 : blah xxx yyy zzz ; 10:01:48 the word : is a creating word 10:01:51 * klooie nods. 10:01:56 forth parses the input. sees the colon 10:02:00 executes the colon 10:02:17 colon parses the input. (it gets the string "blah") 10:02:38 regrettably, 'starting forth' doesn't talk about parsing words at all. 10:02:43 creates a new header for blah (which will eronously use dovariable till we fix it) 10:02:56 ill explain parsing in asecond its simple ennuff 10:03:08 colon THEN switches us into compile mode 10:03:15 and does NOTHING further 10:03:23 erm no 10:03:25 it does one other thing 10:03:31 it does mention buffer, in>, expect, word etc, but not how to write a parsing word (which i'm guessing uses that stuff). 10:03:34 it changes the call dovariable into a call nest 10:03:45 ill show you :) 10:03:47 in a min 10:03:57 * klooie is patient. :) 10:04:05 so we now have a header for a new colon definition. and we are in compile mode 10:04:18 we just got returned back to forths inner loop. 10:04:19 entering compile mode is ]? 10:04:26 yes 10:04:37 the inner loop now parses the next word you typed from the input 10:04:38 the xxx 10:04:44 it searches for xxx. finds it 10:04:45 BUT 10:05:07 instead of executing it, it compiles it because we are now in copile mode 10:05:14 forth does the same thing for yyy and zzz 10:05:15 so 10:05:24 right now. our new : definition looks like this 10:05:29 call nest 10:05:31 dd xxx 10:05:32 dd yyy 10:05:34 dd zzz 10:05:52 now forth parses the next thing from input and its the semicolon 10:06:03 it searches the dictionary for ; and finds it 10:06:12 semicolon is an IMMEDIATE word 10:06:24 even though we are now in COMPILE mode - semicolon gets executed 10:06:26 right, because it has to leave compilation mode immediately. 10:06:35 ; basically does TWO things. 10:06:40 and terminate the compilee's body? 10:06:51 first it compiles an unnest into the new colon def 10:06:58 right after the zzz comes a dd unnest 10:07:07 then it switches us back into interpret mode 10:07:43 hang on - teacher needs a coffee :) 10:07:53 hehe, okidoki. 10:08:13 a word flagged IMMEDIATE is executed even if you're in compile mode 10:08:26 * klooie nods. 10:08:50 forth barely has a parser :) 10:09:08 i also really like "[ ... some computation ... ] literal" in a compiling word. 10:09:20 yes 10:09:32 thats a way of YOU optimizing your code 10:09:34 you could do 10:09:42 : blah 6 5 + . ; 10:09:57 but 6 and 5 are BOTH known quantaties at compile time 10:10:03 so we dont need to add them at run time 10:10:05 you can do 10:10:16 : blah [ 6 5 + ] literal . ; 10:10:21 MUCH better 10:10:24 (sif doesn't have [ and ] ) 10:10:42 you computed theproduct at COMPILE time instead of at run time 10:10:51 do you understand literal ? 10:10:52 typical compilers would spot that and do the optimization in the syntax tree.. 10:10:58 its a compiling word but not a creating word 10:11:02 yes, i believe so. :) 10:11:10 klooie: not typical with forth compilers :) 10:11:15 the word literal is immediate 10:11:20 it does two things 10:11:25 i don't consider forth typical. :) 10:11:30 hehe 10:11:36 it's the simplicity of the system as a whole that's so intriguing. 10:11:38 it compiles (lit) into the : def and then it compiles the number 10:11:53 also how working with it is so close to how forth itself works. 10:11:55 klooie how many c coders do you know who have written their very own c compiler :) 10:12:05 forht has other advantages too - if you dont go with ans 10:12:18 predictability 10:12:21 you're not supposed to understand how other languages work. 10:12:23 YOU know what to expect 10:12:31 but ans says "you dont know what to expect" 10:12:37 you cant for instance do 10:12:53 : blah ...... if r> drop exit then ...... ; 10:13:21 that would discard the return address of blah and return one more level UP the call list 10:13:26 * klooie nods. 10:13:27 xxx calls yyy 10:13:30 yyy calls zzz 10:13:36 zzz calls blah 10:13:43 blah returns to yyy instead of zzz 10:13:50 ans says you CANNOT do this 10:14:04 : fudge r> drop ; 10:14:12 in a real forth that word is legal 10:14:22 it drops its own return address 10:14:39 ans says that you CANNOT guarantee that your return address IS on the return stack 10:14:52 you might be dropping something else entirely 10:14:57 i.e. its NOT predictable 10:15:02 resembling other language standards.. like C. 10:15:02 i.e. is fucked in the head 10:15:08 exactly 10:15:16 a lot is undefined (and therefore practically illegal). 10:15:17 That's one of the advantages of writing your own forth :) You know Exactly how it works :) 10:15:20 when i read c it eventually just blurs over 10:15:22 all i ever see is 10:15:23 blah 10:15:25 blah blah 10:15:27 blah 10:15:28 blah 10:15:30 blah blah 10:15:31 hehe. 10:15:37 when i read ans forth. thats all i see 10:16:03 i've become down on syntax-rich languages. 10:16:17 me 2 :) 10:16:20 (significant) syntax creates like a ceiling to possible abstraction. 10:16:29 there are only TWO languages i realy enjoy coding 10:16:36 besides forth, i like lisp, and also smalltalk to some degree. 10:16:41 it creates a wall on your creativity 10:16:45 --- join: gilbertbsd (~gilbert@max2-105.dacor.net) joined #forth 10:16:49 it hurds you into "the norm" 10:16:56 right. 10:17:01 assembler. forth. 10:17:05 what else is there? hehe 10:17:13 i do feel it makes sense for team programming though, all this syntax and herding i mean. 10:17:19 which is another thing i dislike about ANS 10:17:21 there is Shakespeare 10:17:30 ANY standard is going to be an attempt to "hurd you into the norm" 10:17:37 klooie: you seem like the kind of coder that would Love forth 10:17:52 gilbeert lol - and if were gona go that way we should also give paganini a mention :P 10:17:54 herkamire, aye. :) 10:18:05 paganini? 10:18:11 the trouble so far has been getting good learning material. 10:18:17 greatest composer to have ever lived 10:18:26 Noooo. 10:18:31 He was the greatest violinist! 10:18:36 * klooie is listening to Bach, is that a sin here? :) 10:18:41 listen to his 24 caprieces 10:18:46 gilbert he also played guitar 10:18:59 Paganini? did he invent heavy metal? 10:19:01 klooie it would be a sin if you didnt :) 10:19:06 he sure did :) 10:19:15 he was the worlds first head banger :) 10:19:19 I bet. 10:19:27 he was also the worlds very first superstar 10:19:40 how did we go from forth internals to paganini so fast? 10:19:42 he went on tour to europe and every single show was a complet sell out 10:19:47 I thought Aristotle was simply popular! 10:19:51 its gilberts fault :) 10:20:05 it wasn't my fault. 10:20:14 yes it was. you started it! 10:20:16 I440r: said forth, asm what else is there. 10:20:17 lol 10:20:23 and I said Shakespeare 10:20:30 heh. 10:20:33 and then he said Paganini wanted to sit down too. 10:20:40 2b or !2b - that is ff 10:20:41 so I said "no there is no more space" 10:21:09 ... and then he hit me. 10:21:11 And i hit him 10:21:18 but he started it! 10:21:24 lies! 10:21:33 its all LIES i tell you! 10:21:35 neway. 10:21:41 we were gona talk about parsing words 10:21:42 :D 10:21:50 forth uses a terminal input buffer 10:21:52 yes, parsing words! :) 10:22:01 everything you type gets put into TIB 10:22:15 forth has a word called 'tib that tells you the address of where your tib is 10:22:22 "2b or !2b that is ff" is hilarious! 10:22:37 it has #tib - that tells you how many characters have been stored in tib 10:22:40 it's classic, herkamire. :) 10:22:41 and it has >in 10:22:51 pronounced TO-IN 10:22:56 right. 10:23:02 it says where in the input stream you have currently parsed up to 10:23:07 so if you have 10:23:09 the brodie book from '81 was going on about disk block buffers.. 10:23:11 xxx yyy zzz aaa bbb ccc 10:23:25 in the input buffer and >in is at 8 10:23:38 >in says the zzz is the next word to be parsed out of tib 10:23:57 the word WORD will parse the input stream delimited on what ever character 10:24:01 .... bl word .... 10:24:07 * klooie nods. 10:24:13 says parse the next space delimited word out of tib 10:24:31 where does the word go? to pad? 10:24:41 word in this case would copy the from the start of zzz up to (and including) the next space - to here 10:24:47 you know what here is right ? 10:25:11 yes, the start of the free heap. 10:25:14 in my own klooie terms. 10:25:17 here is the address where the next thing you compile will be stored 10:25:27 right. 10:25:32 yes. its a pointer to the unused part of forths memory 10:25:33 where you allot from etc. 10:25:33 ok 10:25:34 so 10:25:50 bl word just parsed zzz out of tib and stored it at here as a COUNTED string 10:25:53 so we would have 10:25:57 4,'zzz ' 10:25:58 at here 10:26:04 the space is always copied too 10:26:18 you can also do things like 10:26:22 '"' word 10:26:33 to parse the next quote delimited string from tib 10:26:37 ." blah blah blah" 10:26:42 okay.. 10:26:50 dot-quote parses to the next quote! 10:27:01 so i'm a compiling word, immediate in whole or immediate between [] .. 10:27:14 Thanks :9 10:27:20 you lost me 10:27:26 Hey I440r 10:27:28 Hey tathi 10:27:30 you look at tib starting at >in .. 10:27:53 are there guarantees about how much is in tib? 10:27:59 :) 10:28:11 if >in = #tib you have reached the end 10:28:33 tib is also of a known size. in isforth tib is 80 chars i think. 10:28:37 i might have doubled it heh 10:28:48 normally tib is 256 chars 10:28:52 hey rob_ert 10:28:58 can a parsing word consume more input than the size of tib? 10:29:08 no 10:29:11 * klooie pouts. 10:29:12 if it does - its a bug 10:29:31 i might want to do that though, if i implement a domain-specific language in forth.. 10:29:31 if it is parsing and sees that its run out of data - it COULD call refill 10:29:41 refill re-fills tib 10:29:47 * klooie stops pouting. :) 10:29:53 isforth works like that 10:29:55 actually 10:29:59 normally forths do 10:30:01 refill 10:30:18 begin parse nothing-left until 10:30:26 oh, i440r, i have to run. 10:30:30 and then loops back on the refill 10:30:35 dont get winded :) 10:30:35 sorry. 10:30:42 thank you for your explanation, and i shall return. 10:30:48 klooie heh thats ok - we can continue next time:) 10:30:51 have phun 10:30:56 --- part: klooie left #forth 10:31:02 forth the rest of you tho.... isforth works like this 10:31:04 begin 10:31:08 parse 10:31:18 parse sees nothing is left to be parsed - and refills 10:31:19 repeat 10:31:24 much better 10:31:37 the word WORD calls refill if theres nothing left to parse 10:31:53 yup yup 10:31:57 that's the way I usually do it 10:32:11 i NEVER understood why other forths didnt do it this way. 10:32:19 their way is far far far more obscure 10:32:20 me niether 10:32:34 do they just breakup input into 80 byte chunks? 10:32:35 mrreach could prolly tell us why hehe 10:32:41 i dunno. 10:32:59 i gave up trying to understand FPC's parsing/refill mechanism 10:34:34 In Debian, where should I put the commands that handle routing and initiazion of pppd? 10:36:00 errr run pppconfig 10:36:25 Nah, I just downloaded and compiled pppd... I also want to do some routing and stuff 10:36:37 lol 10:36:41 apt-get install -f pppd 10:36:47 Bah... 10:36:51 Old habit :P 10:37:12 But help me ;P 10:37:36 Just need to know a file to put this in... on my old distro, there was a /etc/rc.local 10:38:52 its a BAD old habit 10:38:58 let apt do it. 10:39:20 them ppl at debian know wtf they are doing :) 10:39:22 trust them :) 10:40:26 Hehe 10:40:36 I trust myself ;-D 10:40:46 big mistake :) 10:40:47 (No I don't..) 10:40:47 lol 10:40:51 :) 10:40:58 rob_ert: better make your own OS :) 10:41:02 Bah, äI'll try to solve this myself 10:41:04 herkamire: I tried. 10:41:16 rob_ert: keep at it! 10:41:24 rob_ert: do you know asm? 10:41:29 herkamire: Yes. 10:41:40 rob_ert: could you get chuck's to boot? 10:42:18 Nope. 10:42:27 Ehm.. probably because I never tried., 10:43:47 that might be a good place to start. 10:44:00 he's got the device drivers you need and get's the thing to boot :) 10:44:32 a working example is priceless in my book 11:03:28 rob_ert: its not too late ... FreeBSD is your friend. 11:05:34 lol 11:06:33 Lemme make this clear: BSD is the OS linux wants to be when it grows up. 11:06:43 proof: the gentoo project 11:07:26 further proof: the existence of apt-get, slackware linux etc. 11:07:33 they just wanna be BSD 11:07:58 what's apt-get? some kind of installer/upgrader/package manager thing? 11:08:23 yeah for the linux's that want to be like bsd 11:09:39 gilbertbsd: And they do it well. 11:10:32 really robert? 11:12:03 Tried Debian? 11:12:17 I haven't tried any BSD ;) 11:12:20 no slackware. 11:12:23 So I can't compare , hehe 11:12:30 I have tried slackware ... 11:12:35 and Redhat 11:12:39 and Suse. 11:12:59 and Corel and some others 11:13:16 RedHat sucks. 11:13:29 I've tried RedHat, VectorLinux and Debian 11:13:38 And Debian is the best of them 11:13:53 Yes it is comparable to slackware in its lack of suckiness 11:14:22 me be you should try gentoo sometime. I hear it is quite the distro. 11:14:27 heh 11:16:14 I440r: have you heard of ARM? 11:16:18 yes 11:16:20 but never used 11:16:26 what kinda processor is it? 11:16:55 its a microcontroler 11:25:52 --- quit: tathi ("Client Exiting") 12:05:23 hello 12:23:31 hello 12:27:32 --- join: tcn (tcn@tc1-login46.megatrondata.com) joined #forth 12:27:33 --- mode: ChanServ set +o tcn 12:33:15 ping 12:36:14 tcn! 12:36:16 yo! 12:36:24 err... 12:36:25 pong! 12:36:26 heh 12:36:36 i was playin my mud game :) 12:36:41 heh.. i saw you all were talking an hour ago 12:36:58 ya 12:37:10 chuck moore has agreed to come in here :) 12:37:18 futhin is organizing it with him 12:37:48 for real? has he learned braille or something? 12:38:05 he isnt totally blind is he ? 12:38:09 he is gona be in here tho 12:38:13 maybe he has a talking terminal 12:38:31 or someone to read off to him 12:38:47 maybe 12:39:07 dunno but futhin emailed him and invited him and he has agreed to come vizzit 12:39:22 cool 12:39:26 sure is 12:39:34 hehe.. #emacs: 80 megs & constantly swapping 12:39:56 ya ive heard that one before :) 12:40:10 i like "its a nice operating system but it lacks a decent editor" 12:40:10 heh 12:40:12 it used to be 8 12:40:50 ya 12:41:18 so did you fix fbsd.1 or what :P 12:41:19 lol 12:41:22 nag nag nag 12:41:38 haven't even fired up fbsd lately 12:41:42 doh 12:41:54 you could prolly do it without firing it up 12:43:16 i'm busy looking at small C/pascal/basic compilers 12:43:24 doh! 12:43:28 isforth NEEDS you 12:43:29 c doesnt 12:43:32 nuff sed :P 12:43:52 you want an assembler don't you? 12:44:00 yea 12:44:04 youo working on that ? 12:44:07 so quit your bitchin 12:44:09 THAt would be REALY cool 12:44:10 hgeh 12:44:11 :) 12:44:12 lol 12:44:24 well fscking stop dragging yer ass and messin with my mind :P 12:44:25 lol 12:44:29 --- quit: rob_ert ("Strawberry fields forever.") 12:44:54 ive been looking at the bigforth assembler 12:45:07 its realy good but ill have to modify it ALOT for me to like it 12:45:51 would rather have one that could take the existing nasm sources like we talked about 12:47:22 yeah. I like these small-c compilers.. they don't use BNF.. one-pass i think.. small & quick 12:47:38 bleh 12:47:39 heh 12:48:16 I guess I liked pascal & basic better than C.. I mean, I was forced to use VB and I still got stuff done 12:48:29 ya 12:48:39 pascal had a nicer look to me than c ever did 12:48:40 If only I could throw in some assembly when I needed it 12:49:00 nothing beats pur asm or forth for me 12:49:15 im trying to get vocabs to work in isforht now 12:49:15 * & { }, that's what's screwy about C.. 12:49:24 ya 12:49:29 i hated the braces 12:49:55 at least in pascal it's begin/end, etc.. and you can say cr; instead of cr(); 12:50:03 ya heh 12:50:30 c also has some fucked up way of passing parameters 12:50:41 if you do xyx (foo(), (bar)) 12:50:44 bar gets called first 12:50:51 then foo 12:50:59 heh 12:51:07 erm bar () i mean 12:51:22 thinking LISP hehe 12:51:23 xyz (foo() ^ bar()); 12:51:25 --- join: rob_ert (~robert@h237n2fls31o965.telia.com) joined #forth 12:51:39 --- quit: tcn ("Leaving") 12:51:56 --- join: tcn (tcn@tc1-login46.megatrondata.com) joined #forth 12:51:56 --- mode: ChanServ set +o tcn 12:52:11 shit, i didn't mean to close everthign :) 12:52:15 tcn: have you seen the WebPhone? 12:52:18 lol 12:52:21 haha 12:52:21 lamer :) 12:52:23 it seems like an interesting little device. 12:52:37 a while ago.. you mean calling people over the net? 12:52:44 nope 12:52:49 i guess not then 12:53:03 you mean it's a phone that can check your email? 12:53:09 http://tuxscreen.sourceforge.net/ 12:53:10 yeah 12:53:16 gotta be too small 12:53:27 its a tiny computer with no harddisk. 12:53:55 but it has a touch screen ANd people are putting linux on it. 12:54:09 lol - thats what you get when microsoft starts marketing fones :P 12:54:13 fones with a blue screen 12:55:34 heh 12:55:57 :P 12:56:04 i heard the day they make something that doesn't suck will be the day they make vacuum cleaners 12:56:12 lol 12:57:07 hey this SmallC compiler is only 50k 12:57:13 of C code 12:57:17 lol 12:57:22 you mean sources right ? 12:57:26 yeah 12:57:29 lol 12:57:38 man i cant wait to get vocabs working 12:57:49 i should be doing tghat instead of idling here and plauing mud 12:57:52 41k .exe 12:58:28 so what HAVE you been doing for isforth lately dood ? 12:58:33 are you working on the assembler at all ? 12:58:37 hmm then there's the library.. another 20-30k 12:59:03 a real assembler is like an infix compiler 12:59:08 ya 12:59:15 i want a real assembler 12:59:42 it might as well do a pascal-like language too 12:59:54 sorta like fancy macros in nasm :) 13:00:11 dont talk to me about nasm macros lol 13:00:22 my macros.1 file is the most complex part of isforth rite now :P 13:00:57 you should see the macros in the nasm manual 13:01:02 by the way. im putting find in the root vocab 13:01:08 ive seen them 13:01:18 and decided if i wanted that sort of bullshit i would be coding c 13:01:43 heh 13:02:04 how long would it take you to get the assembler working dood ? 13:02:22 i relay do need it now - basically isforth is on hold till i have one 13:02:24 no idea 13:02:41 are you just not interested still ? like i was for a year ?? :) 13:03:10 im not gona stop nagging till you gimme a working assembler :P 13:03:11 lol 13:03:16 or at least fix fbsd.1 13:03:19 i'm regaining interest.. now that there's no way in hell i'm gonna be building a house or anything 13:03:28 doh 13:03:31 it takes capital 13:03:40 im scared im gona LOSE this house :( 13:04:04 yeah.. how much did you mortgage? 13:04:10 190k 13:04:17 down payment of 40k ish 13:04:19 jesus christ 13:04:25 its worth every penny 13:04:44 and when there were TWO people making 70+k a year in this household it was very affordable 13:04:46 just you or your dad also? 13:04:58 but since 9/11 blew it :( 13:05:03 right 13:05:09 im primary signature on the mortgage 13:05:20 but my fater is on it too 13:05:26 what was your dad doing to make 70k? 13:05:30 ya gotta come visit somethme 13:05:40 both of us were doing consulting 13:05:43 embedded apps 13:06:55 70+k$ a year is very much, heh... and in a land with low taxes (compared to sweden), yum! 13:07:24 you call 40% or more low? 13:07:57 lol 13:07:57 i thought it was about 50% in sweden 13:08:11 its higher in norway i believe 13:08:31 and MOST of what the norwegan government takes out of your paycheck is to go to FORIGN AID!!!! 13:08:41 Norwegian? 13:08:45 i mean, i pay 25-30% taxes and i'm poor! 13:08:46 yes 13:08:48 norway 13:09:00 i don't even make 20k/year 13:09:14 Hmm... I don't think most of their taxes go to foregin aid 13:09:28 The goal for some states is 1% of the national product 13:09:38 foreign aid? whatever happened to the viking ethic? you know, don't give 'em money, kill em! 13:09:40 And I don't think any state has reached that 13:09:45 :) 13:10:00 tcn: The vikings took that attitude to the US instead ,-) 13:10:20 rape pillage and murder ? 13:10:28 they got bored of that :P 13:10:42 seeing how this country's full of swedes, norwegians, scots & irish, i think you're right :) 13:11:41 :) 13:11:47 only boston 13:11:53 boston is irish 13:12:16 you know - when an irish man leaves ireland and comes to usa he decreases the level of intelligence in both countries???? 13:12:17 lol 13:12:24 i can say that - i have irish blood in me :P 13:12:53 Heh 13:12:59 who doesn't? heh 13:13:25 I'm no irishman...but I do like Pink Floyd ;P 13:13:36 pink floyd was a british band 13:13:43 english 13:13:57 --- quit: gilbertbsd (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 13:14:02 Uhm 13:14:06 No difference :D 13:14:13 Thought they were irish 13:14:30 nope. english 13:14:31 They're still good. 13:14:34 they are 13:14:45 But not as good as Beatles or Doors, of course ;-D 13:14:49 gilmore is an awesome guitarist 13:14:50 ugh 13:14:51 the doors 13:14:58 Yup. 13:15:02 They rule :) 13:15:10 that guy liked that on note so much he sang it all the way through every single song 13:15:34 yeah, rob krieger's got a good style.. 13:15:41 cum... on.. baa... be... ligh...t... my.... fii...err 13:15:43 one note 13:15:46 all the way thru 13:15:55 same note all the way thru every other song 13:16:00 :) 13:16:08 no wonder he commited suicide 13:16:09 Hmm... now, what more should I use apt-get to fill my HD with? 13:16:15 Is he dead? 13:16:19 gnome and kde 13:16:24 that will fill it 13:16:28 I440r: I got gnome :D 13:16:29 morrison's dead 13:16:33 Yeah, I know that 13:16:37 But not Krieger 13:16:39 krieger's not 13:16:46 *puuh* 13:16:47 ;) 13:16:51 was he the pianist ? 13:16:55 Er 13:16:57 i think they did a show with eddie vedder a couple years ago 13:16:58 Guitarist 13:16:59 or the guitarist 13:17:00 Or? 13:17:05 Hm 13:17:07 Yeah 13:17:12 THEY had tallent 13:17:14 Their 2nd songwriter 13:17:22 morrison was a complete no tallent 13:17:26 Hehe 13:17:30 He wrote a few songs 13:17:35 And took a few drigs 13:17:38 drugs* 13:17:43 good singers are hard to find 13:18:03 my old band went through about 10 and counting :) 13:18:08 Hah 13:18:30 Let McCartney join 13:18:56 Since Harrison kind of...is dead. 13:19:05 lol 13:19:50 l 13:19:52 more pink floyd stuff: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/aletheia/02.03.04 13:20:04 talking about sid barrett 13:20:30 i was just wondering what the hell Alethia was 13:20:41 nothing, i guess 13:20:45 sounds greek 13:20:49 ask in #greece 13:20:51 heh 13:20:54 i knew a girl named Aletheia once :) 13:21:14 was she cute ? 13:21:15 :) 13:21:56 Strange name, hehe 13:22:07 yeah.. a nice christian girl.. too good for me :) 13:22:23 Christian? *shrugs* 13:22:27 u mean she wouldnt go horizontal for ya heh 13:23:07 always talking about the gospel & all that 13:24:22 :) 13:24:30 better that than this weird ass swami guru parasutra kinda shit :) 13:24:39 Heh 13:24:48 Well, everything is relative ;) 13:24:59 You can always find someone crazier than person x. 13:25:48 some people such suckers.. hehe 13:26:31 --- join: water (water@c207-202-221-160.sea1.cablespeed.com) joined #forth 13:26:41 hi guys 13:26:41 hey there's an idea for ya i440r.. dig up some crap in your back yard.. cow paddies or something.. marrrket them as an essential spiritual nutritional supplement :) 13:26:55 hey brian 13:27:03 Hi 13:27:16 tcn: aletheia means "uncovering" or the emerging of things into existence by throwing light on them 13:27:22 lol 13:27:26 sorry, i read logs every once in a while :) 13:27:34 sorry - no cows in my back yard :P 13:27:35 (actually i grep them mostly) 13:27:42 heh 13:27:47 and i did name the channel 13:27:48 I440r: No cows? Bah, what kind of farmer are you? 13:27:53 it's a greek word 13:28:07 wow hey water welcome to #forth :) 13:28:16 hi mark 13:28:46 lol occasionally you might even read some chitchat about forth heh 13:28:57 heh don't scare me off ;) 13:29:02 lol 13:29:13 do drop >in 13:29:15 nah, i've gone through starting forth before 13:29:23 it's cool, but i like joy better 13:29:34 (wish it was more forth-like though) 13:29:46 starting forth is very basic 13:29:55 its a good starting point for the absolute beginner 13:30:04 i'm getting back into old-school languages 13:30:14 tcn: PL/I? :) 13:30:19 lol 13:30:31 where true = 1 and false = 0 heh 13:30:37 heh 13:31:08 hey C99 just caught up to it then ;) 13:31:32 man, it's sad how gcc still behaves like a compiler from the 60's 13:31:41 Heh, in what ways? 13:31:51 100k for a 'hello world' 13:32:04 Hrmmm 13:32:11 that 13:32:13 In C++ with SDL? :) 13:32:13 oops 13:32:29 wait til you guys see eihrul's squeak compiler ;) 13:32:35 heh 13:32:43 have you seen it? 13:32:51 i have his latest code 13:33:05 it doesn't work yet, but it implements a lot of good techniques 13:33:11 and very tiny 13:33:18 yet optimizing :) 13:33:48 i should mention, since most people don't believe it, it's written *in* squeak, not *for* squeak 13:34:26 bah, enough spam 13:34:31 later 13:34:32 --- part: water left #forth 13:34:34 heh 13:34:44 he doesnt spam MUCH does he :) 13:34:45 hehe 13:34:57 didn't even say what it IS for 13:35:08 tcn wheres my assembler :P 13:35:15 lol no - he wanted to leave that part hanging :P 13:35:48 i'm not at home and i'm going to practice in an hour.. 13:35:56 quit asking :) 13:35:59 practice ? 13:36:06 no 13:36:07 never 13:36:10 nag nag nag! 13:37:00 i wonder if I can get a pascal compiler for linux 13:37:08 lol 13:37:08 yea 13:37:08 there is one 13:37:10 i think 13:37:14 but not p2c 13:40:37 hehee.. i want a Linux system as opposed to a GNU/Linux :) 13:41:41 lol 13:41:52 make one 13:41:56 but make my assembler first :P 13:42:05 * I440r twiddles his thumbs waiting :) 13:42:06 tcn: freepascal.org :-) 13:42:18 It's a good one 13:42:29 TP/Delphi compatible 13:46:56 --- join: futhin (thin@h24-64-174-2.cg.shawcable.net) joined #forth 13:47:13 futhin put something in the topic about when chuck is goan be here 13:47:14 gona 13:47:39 freepascal's too big.. i guess i'll stick w/ asm or C 13:47:48 sure, as soon as i get a 2nd email back from chuck 13:47:59 heh 13:48:05 stick with forth! 13:48:12 like - ISFORTH 13:48:14 lol 13:48:22 tcn: what blasphemy are you speaking today? :D 13:48:48 i440r: what's happening with the assembler? 13:49:09 not much 13:49:19 still trying to get isforth to work again after making vocabs 13:49:21 gotta debug find 13:49:31 --- quit: Soap` (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 13:49:35 Hey futhin 13:49:54 yeah? 13:50:08 Just said hello 13:50:11 :) 13:51:22 people seem to have difficulty of thinking up things to code.. 13:51:50 coding is about being able to create tools that you need, on the fly.. 13:52:03 everybody needs personalised tools 13:52:05 --- join: Fare (fare@samaris.tunes.org) joined #forth 13:52:12 hi fare! 13:52:30 Gakuk 13:53:34 Hi :) 13:56:00 what does gakuk mean ? 13:56:01 heh 13:58:09 kuk = cock 14:00:18 see ya 14:00:37 --- quit: tcn ("Leaving") 14:01:46 words mean what people know their party understands when they hear them. 14:02:55 I440r: what do you understand that I mean, when I say "Gakuk"? 14:03:13 That you're not completley sane? :) 14:03:18 :) 14:03:24 what's sanity? 14:04:18 Opposite of our mental state? 14:05:26 --- quit: Speuler ("using sirc version 2.211+KSIRC/1.1") 14:11:18 lol 14:11:43 i meant. whats its LITERAL translation :P 14:14:20 literally, it means Gakuk 14:15:11 it's HEX 47 61 6B 75 6B in ascii 14:15:17 Fare is philosophical. Let's make him our new God. 14:15:48 ouch. Please don't. I might cease to exist, if I am equated with God. 14:16:13 * Fare vanishes in a puff of logic 14:17:16 lol 14:17:37 lol 14:19:34 ...so this guy walks into a bar. "The usual, Mr. Descartes?" the barman asked. "I think not," Rene replied, and promptly disappeared. 14:21:42 heh 14:28:02 * rob_ert gets tons of warnings when compiling gforth :) 14:29:38 my mean friend wrote up a proof disproving my existence 14:29:52 but the premise was that i was god 14:30:25 rob_ert: insanity is relative 14:30:48 futhin: what was it about chuck moore coming here? 14:32:46 fare: i have invited him for an online interview, and he is up for it, now we are just establishing the time he'll come to #forth 14:33:02 --- join: Speuler (~l@a161161.upc-a.chello.nl) joined #forth 14:33:12 hi 14:33:20 fare: maybe we'll ask chuck about GC ;) 14:33:24 hi speuler 14:33:34 I doubt he's interested about GC. 14:33:47 he's all into manual management of everything. 14:34:09 but by all means, send me mail when you know when he's coming 14:34:12 yeah, but maybe he can tell us if forth can be modified to handle GC 14:34:30 depends what you call "can be modified to" 14:35:19 fare: well why don't you give me the question 14:35:36 i'm sort of collecting some questinos 14:35:39 questions* 14:35:46 I'm not sure what question that would be. 14:35:49 so that the interview goes relatively smoothly.. 14:36:29 fare: well, it's about Tunes & high-level languages.. you don't think Forth is high-level without GC.. what do you define GC to be in this case? what kind of GC do you demand ? 14:37:08 perhaps chuck will be able to give you some ideas on how to better use forth as the LLL of Tunes or whatever... 14:37:31 In the late 1960's, Robin Popplestone built a high-level language based on a stack machine with garbage-collection, of which is descended the pop-11 language, and the poplog system. Have you ever been made aware of this system? 14:38:28 What do you think of high-level strongly-typed variants of forth, such as POP-11, HP RPL, Postscript? 14:39:04 er 14:39:04 how would you integrate a low-level forth system with such a high-level forth? 14:39:17 i wouldn't phrase it as "Have you ever been _made_ aware of this system?" i'd say it more like "Have you ever heard about this system?" 14:39:31 what is this fascination with garbage collection 14:39:37 i never understood why 14:39:55 its like. well - the compiled program leaves trashh all over the place so we need a function to clean up 14:40:00 I440r: no 14:40:11 instead of 'lets not write shitty code that needs to be policed' 14:40:12 heh 14:40:18 it's like - you manipulate graphs of objects instead of a linear memory 14:40:26 fare: why is GC _even_ applicable to forth? if forth transcends it, you don't need GC :P 14:40:29 objects 14:40:31 ugh 14:40:44 futhin: if asm transcends forth, you don't need forth 14:40:53 wait, that's precisely what Chuck is doing! 14:40:58 actually i think its the other way round 14:41:02 forth transcends asm 14:41:17 well, forth+GC transcends forth 14:41:26 I440r: no, not objects as in "object oriented" 14:41:31 just nodes in the graph. 14:41:55 it STILL seems like an over complex way to do things in forth 14:41:59 objects as in atomic units of information. 14:41:59 whats wrong with 'here' 14:42:10 I440r: not the same use 14:42:12 in isforth every vocabulary will have its own here 14:42:20 ever programmed symbolic manipulation systems? 14:42:47 define that for me and ill tell you 14:43:14 things like, automatically differentiate a function 14:43:20 or translate forth to C 14:43:32 ugh - heh why would i even WANT to! 14:43:40 or analyze some "natural language" sentence 14:43:44 im writing isforth to get rid of c as much as i can 14:43:49 aha that ive not done 14:43:52 or translate C to forth. 14:43:56 im not very good at natural languages 14:44:07 fare it would produce some of the shittiest forth in existance 14:44:15 ill just take what i kniw the c code does and code it in forth 14:44:17 from scratch 14:45:30 i never understood garbage colection. 14:45:40 even when they talked about it in c64 basic 14:45:41 lol 14:49:21 c64 basic prolly gc'ed the strings. 14:49:33 it did 14:50:15 in higher-level languages, you can gc everything, not just strings 14:50:20 even code, sometimes 14:50:28 forget foo 14:50:33 fare: i'm confused, i know you and water know all about symbolism and lambda and other weird stuff.. but what are you guys coding with that stuff? are you making better applications for a better world? :) 14:50:48 isforths forget is going to forget ONLY from one vocabulary 14:51:12 assuming i get vocabs to work at all heh 14:55:30 you will! :P 14:56:17 i440r: if there was a full fledged operating system coded in forth, with gui, and tons of applications and games and whatever.. how would you handle all the code? vocabularies wouldn't be the best way to handle the code would they ?? 14:56:59 er u mean every process in its own vocab ? 14:57:33 would the whole os work as a 'you invoke it - forth compiles it' or would there be precompiled apps 14:58:43 * Speuler enjoys the discussion 14:59:21 heh 15:01:27 4th: 100000 ms 15:01:31 Speuler: Terminated. 15:02:38 i jsut got ms to work in isforth! 15:02:43 using nanosleep 15:02:45 recently 15:03:00 10 seconds - uses nanosleep 15:03:07 20 ms - uses nanosleep 15:03:26 2 years -- ? 15:03:41 5 nanocenturies 15:03:55 lol 15:04:00 ill add those! 15:05:29 nanocentury should be about 3 seconds 15:06:11 you calculated that ? 15:06:12 heh 15:06:25 3.1536 secs 15:06:37 100 365 24 60 60 * * * 1000000000 */mod . . 15:06:53 not quite 15:06:57 heh 15:07:03 some years have 366 days 15:07:41 75 365 * 25 366 * + 24 60 60 * * 1000000000 */mod . . 15:07:53 3.15576 secs 15:08:07 about 15:08:43 microcentury is about 50 minutes 15:09:17 milli ~ 40 days 15:09:33 ahem 15:09:39 heh 15:10:05 34 days 15:11:34 a good sleep would be 10 microcenturies 15:12:12 and a good shit 100 nanos 15:13:46 t'is metric too 15:26:26 onetom: took the mail i've send to me from your machine more than a day to get here ... 15:53:31 --- join: TheBlueWizard (TheBlueWiz@ip-216-25-205-142.vienna.va.fcc.net) joined #forth 15:53:32 --- mode: ChanServ set +o TheBlueWizard 15:53:36 hiya all 15:55:29 Hi 15:55:45 hiya rob_ert 15:57:49 hi wiz 15:58:44 hiya Speuler 15:59:05 tbw! 15:59:16 chuck moore is gona come in here soon :) 15:59:35 Hope he gets here when I'm online :-) 15:59:55 hiya I440r!!! :) 16:00:11 for real??? 16:00:29 ya 16:00:33 ask futhin 16:00:42 whoa....kewl! 16:00:54 never had a chat with him before! 16:01:30 Hehe 16:01:42 I don't think he's on IRC 24/7 :) 16:01:52 heh...so, how's life, I440r? 16:01:54 he wont be hgeh 16:01:57 lol 16:02:03 live is ok. work would be good :P 16:03:14 yeah...know the feeling...I just came off my usual IRC chat with my friend in upstate NY....he has been given a pink slip, and is now looking for a job 16:03:37 :( 16:03:56 yeah... 16:06:28 is the recession still happening? 16:07:27 one news says, yeah...another news says the economy is now growing....*sigh* 16:08:16 lol 16:08:24 all i care about is getting a JOB 16:08:26 --- join: goshawk` (goshawk@goshawk.dialup.access.net) joined #forth 16:08:33 heh 16:08:41 hi goshawk` 16:08:47 you a forth coder? - :) 16:08:49 all I want is a BETTER job hehe 16:08:58 hiya goshawk` 16:09:07 hey hey 16:09:14 * Speuler doesn't want a job 16:09:36 i NEED one 16:09:41 440: I'd like to think so =) 16:09:50 gosh seen my isforth ? 16:10:13 I've heard of it, but that's about as far as it goes 16:10:28 isforth.clss.net has the most recent released code 16:10:36 (sorry!) 16:10:46 im working on getting vocabularies to work - adding them with nasm macros was a bitch ehh 16:11:06 soon as i got it working ill release the next version 16:11:32 I presume it would be for *nix? 16:11:39 linux only 16:11:41 x86 only 16:11:44 Speuler: grrrrr :)) 16:11:45 cool 16:11:48 cool 16:11:50 hi guys 16:11:52 if tcn fixes the syscall code it will work in fbsd too 16:12:28 1tom: beg your pardon ? 16:12:43 i44: neat! 16:12:51 Speuler: who was that "100000 ms"? ;) 16:13:16 its getting there :) 16:13:16 1tom: about 30 nanocenturies 16:13:29 ill be ALOT happier once i have an assembler i can use :P 16:13:54 i4: don't like nasm? 16:14:05 Speuler: yeah, i saw your prev lesson about those :) 16:14:11 4th: 75 365 * 25 366 * + 24 60 60 * * 1000000000 */mod . . 16:14:15 Speuler: 3 155760000 16:14:40 Speuler: and also saw your mail just some hrs after uve sent it 2 me 16:15:03 nasm is ok 16:15:04 heh 16:15:06 Speuler: actually i saw the mail command in the server history 16:15:21 but isforth will have the ability to totally recompile its own kernel 16:15:25 i4: is that what you are referring to, or do you mean your own assembler for isforth? 16:15:32 thats part of what makes a forth a REAL forth 16:15:42 an assembler extension 16:15:44 1tom: soer 16:15:53 yeah, which is mysteriously missing from virtually every Forth these days =0 16:16:40 well forth doesnt usually have an extension that lets it compile C code :P 16:16:41 lol 16:16:56 oh, it is written in 'C'? 16:17:26 goshawk`: IsForth is written in NASM 16:17:30 Speuler: soer? 16:17:31 hell; no 16:17:34 isforth isnt 16:17:42 theh kernel is written in 100% pure assembler 16:17:48 with nasm macros to create the headers 16:18:26 tbw: that's what I thought, i just wasn't sure where the 'C' code came in =) 16:18:38 the by way :) 16:19:05 oh, nm...I wasn't referring to most Forth's written in 'C'...but yeah, that too =) 16:19:14 the c code was "most forths cant compile their own sources these days" response heh 16:19:16 (sorry! I am little burnt from last night) 16:19:22 lol 16:19:34 do you run linux ? 16:19:49 no, unfortunately not anytime recently 16:19:51 ah...I440r is talking about Forth implementations in general...like no assembler extension...I don't know of any Forth that supports "C extension"...prolly hard to do it anyway 16:20:09 why would one want one anhyway 16:20:35 TheBlueWizard: there r some BNF stuff implemented in 4th 16:20:41 tbw: I am sure if we dug around some of the post-ANS dated issues Forth Dimensions, I am sure we'd find someone who did that :P 16:21:00 ans isnt forth 16:21:02 they were going nuts with this "let's turn Forth into a bastardization of 'C'" phase 16:21:12 heh...I don't have any Forth Dimension mags here :P 16:21:13 TheBlueWizard: r they professional enough 2 create other langs, like C or Pascal, using them? 16:21:20 agreed...but I mean very much C-like 16:21:38 like proposing coding style standards and branching routines which virtually emulated 'C' 16:21:50 it was really rather revolting 16:22:07 onetom: yeah...that Gray parser...quite interesting I have to admit...it used to have a license that forbade military from using it 16:22:07 ugh 16:22:18 lets just destroy forth while were at it 16:22:19 i4: yeah, exactly 16:22:42 and now we are in the "let's turn Forth into a scripting language for some awful internet OS" phase 16:22:44 i was readong on CLF where they were talking about the return stack 16:23:00 TheBlueWizard: wow. how do u know about that licence restriction? have u ever worked for the army? :) 16:23:02 on entry into a word you CANNOT guarantee that the top item of the return stack is your return address 16:23:03 ugh 16:23:40 onetom: it is possible to implement a C compiler in Forth...but why? Forth is just more flexible 16:23:43 part of what makes forth such a good language is its predictability 16:24:09 yeah...and permeability...and a no BS approach to dealing with the hardware 16:24:17 C is all about the opposite, from what I can tell 16:24:20 onetom: I have the old Gray parser source code with that stupid license (about 10 years ago) 16:24:31 TheBlueWizard: why not? u cant b the judge of any lang 16:24:42 my absolute hate for the c language is partof what made me write isforth 16:24:56 being "static", and obscuring as much of the hardware's interesting features as possible 16:25:03 for the sake portability 16:25:06 TheBlueWizard: ive seen "a lot of" parsers written in forth 16:25:07 which is why ANS is a bitch, too 16:25:23 i4: I can understand that 16:25:26 the Gray parser is similar to YACC parser 16:25:54 and often strongly sympathize 16:25:54 TheBlueWizard: tho, i cant recall where & how many, but im sure there r some implementations. more than 1... wo stupid licenses 16:26:26 gosh how come you aint been in here before 16:26:28 or have you 16:26:38 TheBlueWizard: and there r also descriptions, clean descriptions of langs like pascal 16:26:39 I have. Off and on, quite a bit 16:26:44 aha 16:26:55 talked to you only a week or two ago 16:27:02 as it happens =) 16:27:02 onetom: don't fret...Gray is now GPL licensed 16:27:04 TheBlueWizard: we should give it a try sometime & make a testdrive 16:27:30 onetom: you can easily find YACC files for C and Pascal...and Ada and.... 16:27:32 TheBlueWizard: create a simple pascal 2 forth compiler 16:27:56 yuck...pascal 16:28:04 goshawk`: husssh 16:28:06 lol im getting old 16:28:08 i forget things heh 16:28:21 gosh youshud be a permanant feature in here :P 16:28:25 i4: hah, doesn't matter....how are you, today? 16:28:28 your a forth officianado :P 16:28:38 im ok 16:28:39 onetom: can be done...but it is actually somewhat tricky to implement Pascal to Forth compiler, due to the way the variables are scoped 16:28:40 i4: are you sure? I get damn annoying =) 16:28:47 goshawk`: i grew up on pascal :P i like it. i did many grand things in it :p 16:29:01 onetom: sorry...no offense intended :P 16:29:15 heh 16:29:41 TheBlueWizard: why? its pretty similar 2 a pascal 2 asm compiler, isnt it? 16:30:26 TheBlueWizard: just forth is a smarter processor... 16:30:37 TheBlueWizard: than the usual 1s 16:30:48 i440r: what's an example natural language programming language? 16:30:50 correct spelling: aficionado 16:30:56 er 16:30:58 forth :P 16:31:04 do drop >in !!! 16:31:04 tbw: isn't it two 'f''s? 16:31:22 or did screw that one up? 16:31:28 hah i4 =) 16:31:32 it comes from Spanish...therefore only one f 16:31:58 thats from a REALY old forth dimensions 16:32:02 hey futhin =) 16:32:12 I440r: and what does it do? 16:32:25 g4 : x do drop >in ; 16:32:29 onetom: in file included from *the terminal*:-1 16:32:29 onetom: /tmp/fsock-sh-server.request.tmp:46: unstructured 16:32:29 onetom: : x do drop >in ; 16:32:29 onetom: ^ 16:32:29 onetom: Backtrace: 16:32:31 onetom: $4011B640 throw 16:32:33 onetom: $4012245C 16:32:35 onetom: $401284E4 def? 16:32:37 onetom: $4011EF34 ;-hook 16:32:43 it was a joke 16:32:49 onetom: it's a joke 16:32:54 a picture of a PUB with a sign on it saying 16:32:59 do drop erm do drop >in 16:33:05 and as we can see gforth cant understand humor :) 16:33:06 21 < abort 16:33:12 lets extend it! :) 16:33:28 i often set the topic in here to do drop >in 16:33:30 heh 16:33:36 :)) 16:33:51 onetom: consider the situation: function y() var i; function z() var j; begin { some expressions involving i and j}; end begin .... end 16:33:51 hah, 21 < abort =) 16:33:56 ya 16:34:01 i know a pub, called "the forth pub" 16:34:05 I440r: & i never chk the topic :/ 16:34:06 are you familiar with that joke gosh ? 16:34:09 it is in forth street 16:34:11 jeez, you gforth sucks if it can't figure out how to run "do drop >in" 16:34:17 no, never heard it before =) 16:34:26 do drop >in isnt executable :P 16:34:34 yes it is 16:34:37 --- quit: Fare ("Connection reset by pear") 16:34:39 it's not supposed to be executable :P 16:34:43 i fully expect isforth to be able to execute it 16:34:46 onetom: suppose that z() can call y() and can call itself...now how do you determine where the right i and j variables are? not that obvious from implementation viewpoint 16:34:58 yes it is executable fools! :P 16:35:15 lol 16:35:17 goshawk`: coz i wants u to stay sober :) 16:35:27 it calls upon the mighty demons of hell to get all the forth coders in the world to suddenly join #forth 16:35:59 lol 16:36:03 ack! I don't want to get possessed! 16:36:08 hah, futhin 16:36:13 how are you, futhin? 16:36:14 well if chuck moore DOES come in here were going to have to charge a gate :)P 16:36:22 i4: haha 16:36:35 TheBlueWizard: ? just as the compilers do usually. make symbol tables during compiling... 16:36:36 I'm already in...so I don't hafta pay, right? 16:37:07 lol 16:37:35 TheBlueWizard: we can implement a pascal in the old fashion way 16:37:47 TheBlueWizard: by creating stackframes OR 16:38:17 onetom: yes...but consider the runtime case...like: i i j i j j i j j from a "plain" stack viewpoint...how do you traverse the stack to get the right one? there are ways, but it requires either placing frames on stack, or using a second stack to keep track of the first stack 16:38:21 TheBlueWizard: we can create a more 4thish code from it 16:38:37 futhin is ignoring me =) 16:38:41 lol tbw dont put them ALL on the stackk at the same time hehe 16:38:55 just execute I or J when you need the specific index 16:38:58 so I consider it quite hackish...yuck...same story happens with Pascal to C compiler 16:39:22 TheBlueWizard: or creating other data structures in the dict. yes, thats right 16:39:42 TheBlueWizard: oh, yay.... its completely different i think 16:40:04 I440r: LOL, but I could throw in bunches of variables, like ARRAY C OF [6..30] OF [10..80] (I am not 100% sure of its syntax, but you get the idea).... 16:40:10 TheBlueWizard: Pascal & C and many other langs usually have compilers, right? 16:40:33 my father wrote a program to control 50 or 60 micro controllers on a CAN and he didnt use a single variable 16:40:39 everything was done on the stack 16:40:48 TheBlueWizard: those compilers compile thoses sources into the lang of a machine, a processor 16:40:51 onetom: yup...though there are interpreters for Pascal and C...one famous example: USCD Pascal 16:40:54 the complete serial input and putput was done via the stack 16:41:42 TheBlueWizard: forth can also b considered a processor, so a pascal2forth is should differ 2 much from a pascal2xxx-asm 16:42:14 onetom: yes...but it is more work IMNSHO :) 16:42:15 --- join: Soap` (flop@203-96-99-90.dialup.xtra.co.nz) joined #forth 16:42:19 TheBlueWizard: isnt x86 machine code get interpreted when executed? 16:42:54 I have to go run out to do a few things 16:42:58 onetom: all CPU codes get interpreted...there's a decode cycle, execution cycle.... 16:43:04 bye goshawk` 16:43:15 TheBlueWizard: i think it could b less work then compiling such HLLs 2 dumb processors native code... 16:43:21 nice meeting you again, i4 =) 16:43:32 bye 16:43:32 take care, blue 16:43:45 red & green too 16:43:45 later =) 16:43:48 :) 16:45:29 onetom: only slightly less IMHO...actually, compiling HLLs into native code would make them go faster anyway...so no point in writing HLL to Forth compiler, unless you need Forth source code ASAP 16:45:45 --- join: njd_ (junk@njd.paradise.net.nz) joined #forth 16:45:54 TheBlueWizard: mmmm 16:46:00 * TheBlueWizard has written a compiler for a class, so knows the rope 16:46:22 TheBlueWizard: "compiling HLLs into native code would make them go faster" faster than what? 16:46:39 what kinda compiler? 16:47:02 x -> y ; x = _ ; y =_ 16:48:40 execution speed of the resulting code 16:48:57 today's compilers are pretty good at optimizing 16:49:06 "would make them go faster execution speed of the resulting code" pardon? 16:49:25 no, no...you are messing up what I'm saying 16:49:41 but they r optimizing 4 1 stack machine architectures... 16:49:56 no no no u r messing it up 16:50:10 by not answering me precisely 16:50:17 If you think HLL -> Forth beats HLL -> native code on today's CPU speed wise, you're sadly mistaken 16:50:27 I am not messing up...you are 16:50:48 i was not sayin anything about such a comparision 16:51:13 ok whatever 16:51:23 and i wont compare not comparable thing 16:51:40 wo finding the common denominator b4 16:52:43 im broodin on the 4th os... 16:52:59 it will need other compilers, i think 16:53:19 I am assuming that we are using the same computer (eg a typical x86 machine) and compare the execution code produced from a HLL->Forth compiler and HLL->native code compiler 16:53:34 and it would b interesting 2 see wheather is it simpler 2 compile those 16:53:41 else it wouldn't be comparable anyway 16:54:26 famous HLLs 2 a not so LLL like the machine code of 2days, 1stack risc procs 16:54:45 but 2 forth 16:55:28 TheBlueWizard: u still didnt get clearly my viewpoint about 4ht 16:55:30 4th 16:55:57 its a processor, just like x86, 68xxx, arm .... 16:56:34 so HLL->4th is just the same thing as HLL->x86 or HLL->68k 16:56:49 and i u wanna compare those on 1 machine... 16:56:53 well, go on 16:57:13 most people usually have access 2 one of those archs 16:57:34 so they get simulators for the others 16:57:46 yeah...if it were a hardware chip, there might be an argument for having HLL going faster on that chip...but that is quite hard to quantify, as we don't have any good optimizing compiler for stack machines (at least that's my understanding) 16:57:56 4th is the best example of a simulated architecure 16:58:00 onetom: in file included from *the terminal*:-1 16:58:00 onetom: /tmp/fsock-sh-server.request.tmp:46: Undefined word 16:58:00 onetom: is the best example of a simulated architecure 16:58:00 onetom: ^^^ 16:58:00 onetom: Backtrace: 16:58:02 onetom: $4011D0BC throw 16:58:04 onetom: $4011D0D4 (') 16:58:06 onetom: $4011EC44 ' 16:58:09 :)) 16:58:12 oops 16:58:47 sif: .( Good night!) 16:58:48 rob_ert: Good night! 16:58:59 i will make gforth not to know those prefixes 16:59:01 --- quit: rob_ert ("Strawberry fields forever.") 16:59:49 4th is the best example of a simulated architecure 16:59:51 what's eating gforth? 16:59:51 k 16:59:53 onetom: in file included from *the terminal*:-1 16:59:54 onetom: /tmp/fsock-sh-server.request.tmp:46: Undefined word 16:59:54 onetom: is the best example of a simulated architecure 16:59:54 onetom: ^^^ 16:59:57 onetom: Backtrace: 16:59:57 onetom: $4011D0BC throw 16:59:59 onetom: $4011D0D4 (') 17:00:01 onetom: $4011EC44 ' 17:00:06 no, its still not okay :( 17:00:56 --- part: gforth left #forth 17:00:59 --- join: gforth (guest@adsl52205.vnet.hu) joined #forth 17:01:07 eh, silly bindings... 17:01:23 ah...silly of gforth :) 17:01:23 4th prefix should b unknown now 17:02:06 so back 2 the problem 17:02:29 its not hard 2 qualify the various implementations, ithink 17:02:53 there r good profilers 17:03:01 there r good simulators 17:03:10 there r clever ppl 17:03:23 who can make nice estimations 17:03:29 perhaps...but then one would argue over the clock speed, the quality of cache etc...I got out of CPU wars a long time ago hehe 17:03:51 but u havent asked me, what would it b good 4 17:04:58 the clock speed is certainly wont b the part of the comparision expression 17:05:02 I didn't ask that one, did I (crazy grin) 17:05:12 coz we should calc ratios 17:05:14 --- quit: njd_ ("md: total destruction - http://mortal-dreams.n3.net") 17:05:43 and clock speed would b multipliers in both the denom & the enum 17:05:58 so it will fall out... 17:06:44 k, now lets talk about the intents behind such a compiler 17:07:11 let me ask u 1st, right? 17:07:16 do u know logo? 17:08:16 my point is that quantifying something as complex as CPU actually isn't easy...there are bandwidth issue to consider, various schemes of implementations, quality of compilers, etc etc etc..the whoe shebang...you can't just stick a single number on that thing and say "Aha! this beats that!" 17:08:25 I know some logo, yeah 17:08:47 whoe -> whole 17:09:28 sure, u cant 17:09:56 but u cant compare various aspects of the problem 17:10:05 that's why I said I got out of CPU wars a long time ago :) 17:10:08 and then count overall comparision indexes 17:10:18 and later u can refine the calculation 17:10:35 by considering more & more circumstances 17:10:43 thats obivous ithink 17:10:55 its doesnt worth 2 argue about it @ all 17:11:25 but still 17:11:29 * TheBlueWizard throws in just one extra variable and watches the comparison change...sometimes drastically, to his sadistic pleasure 17:11:40 there r some objective measurment units, like code size 17:12:11 that tells something... 17:12:34 sure, there *are* some parts that can be objectively measured....code size is arguably a reasonable item to measure 17:12:48 but this isnt the most important about the whole thing 17:13:03 1, u can have a pascal compiler under the 4th os 17:13:47 this is good for making it available 4 educational purposes 17:14:21 yes...at least in theory (I though I haven't seen such a beast...yet :) 17:14:25 and also good 4 "porting" pascal programs 2 the 4thOS environment 17:14:40 ihope, u will :) 17:14:55 within 1 or 2 yrs 17:15:14 if my research directin wont deviate 17:15:49 porting Pascal proggies over to a 4th OS...well, that is something to do, yeah...the same can be said for porting C proggie to 4th OS...but I personally would just recode each app 17:15:58 2, u can have a nice comparision on 4th and pascal 17:16:51 it would serve as a specific example on compiling 2 2stacks architectures 17:17:25 TheBlueWizard: why would u recode a well working app? 17:18:10 TheBlueWizard: why dont u recode ur favourite opensource programs 2 ur favourite lang then? 17:18:28 TheBlueWizard: why do u use them instead... :p 17:18:35 to eliminate cruftiness generated by a compiler, such as many variables, frame stacks, whatever, and to promote accessibility to various routines :) 17:18:38 wo recoding.. 17:19:11 I have recoded a few small apps on occasions.... 17:19:23 i dont doubt 17:19:28 but not alll 17:20:01 I wouldn't think of trying to recode, say, a X server....too many drivers to worry about 17:20:12 1 could say ah, C is just good enough 17:20:22 we wrote the full OS in C, so 17:20:28 dont implement other langs 17:20:38 yup......see my point now? 17:20:40 just force every 1 2 write apps in C 17:21:20 some would think about recoding a X server into Forth...I simply don't have time.... 17:21:20 and u mine? 17:21:33 um...only partly :) 17:21:36 just imagine the case w the 64bits itanium processor 17:21:56 many ppl r working on compilers 4 it 17:22:16 mainly a C compiler, tho the processor itself doesnt exist yet 17:22:23 the use simulators 17:22:43 and a word about the X server... 17:23:07 X server is "patch up on a patch" sw 17:23:08 * TheBlueWizard imagines many people working on Itanium related projects...and M$ just said it likes AMD x86-64....those people scream as they get flushed down the toilet :) 17:23:13 its pretty bloated 17:23:51 there r some solutions w lower bandwidth requirements 17:24:38 so i would recreate the designs for the same capabilities that an X server-client arch has 17:25:02 --- join: MrReach (~mrreach@209.181.43.190) joined #forth 17:25:12 sometimes, yeah...remember, Intel is aiming at server market...that is one segment where many people are making real money, heck, my branch is really shelling out money for mid-range servers to run Websites...really! 17:25:36 and, hey forget those silly financial aspect 4 a min 17:25:54 try 2 think a bit more theoretically 17:26:00 a bit more abstract 17:26:38 ok...by the way, I will be going out in a few minutes...must eat.... 17:27:04 dont mess the phenomena of the real world w ideas 17:27:13 good apetite 17:27:24 p 17:27:39 heh 17:28:09 I'll go out as soon as I finish reading a certain set of K^K comix ;) 17:28:46 :) k, bye then 17:28:48 K&K, that is 17:29:01 i dont know whats that, anyway 17:30:01 Kevin and Kell comix (http://www.kevinandkell.com)...often funny...has warped viewpoint of many things :) 17:36:31 bye all 17:36:53 --- part: TheBlueWizard left #forth 18:25:57 --- join: Soap- (flop@210-86-38-109.dialup.xtra.co.nz) joined #forth 18:28:52 --- quit: Soap- (Client Quit) 18:30:57 --- quit: Soap` (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 18:49:34 mrreach lol 18:49:38 when did YOU sneek in heh 18:52:13 is this your freebsd machine? 18:52:15 w/c 18:54:34 eh ? 18:54:35 who 18:54:43 i dun run fbsd 18:55:06 oh, I spewed that to the wrong channel =) 18:56:06 I slip occasionally with the cursor focusing 18:56:24 heh 18:56:42 do you run fbsd ? 18:56:48 no 18:56:50 the fbsd include in isforth needs fixing 18:56:59 it isnt even close to working lol 18:57:15 if I did, I would have tried helping out :P 18:57:19 sorry :P 18:57:22 i rewrote the syscall interface for isforth and the fbsd interface was never updated./ heh 18:58:05 ouch 18:58:32 actually i simplified it ALOT 18:59:44 that's cool...do you mind if I ask how? 19:00:10 (or is that a trade secret?) 19:01:27 no heh 19:01:40 what i had before was a table that had the number of parameters each syscall used 19:01:57 if a syscall wasnt being used its entry would be $ff 19:02:12 ive got a creating word to create syscalls taht would compile a 19:02:18 call dosyscall 19:02:22 dd syscall_number 19:02:45 you do N1 syscall 19:02:58 and it would create a word called to execute that syscall 19:03:12 erm you have to passn n1 and n2 to it i mean 19:03:19 #parameters and syscall numbrer 19:03:23 it would create 19:03:27 call dosyscall 19:03:40 erm i covered that already heh my brain is like on hold or something heh 19:03:48 no problem...that's cool 19:03:50 it would fill in the table entry for that syscall 19:03:55 i removed the table 19:04:00 it now compiles 19:04:04 call dosyscall 19:04:10 db syscall_number 19:04:19 db num_parametrers 19:04:54 and dosyscall jumps to the correct address to pop the correct number of parameres off the stack 19:04:59 into the correct registers 19:05:15 then it jumps to the code that actually executes the syscall and tests the result 19:05:24 it sets a variable called errno on error hehe 19:06:00 yeah...cut quite a few steps out of it 19:06:14 plus i got rid of a complete table 19:06:20 yeah...nice =) 19:06:31 you don't want to start doing things the 68K Macintosh way 19:06:32 =) 19:06:36 the table was 256 bytes big but if we ever go beyond 256 different syscalls i would have to make ti bigger 19:06:41 lol 19:06:52 68k is much better :P 19:07:29 the syscall mechanism for linux is in the file linux.1 in my sources 19:07:31 i am just referring to the huge tables of trap calls and parameters and etc. and etc. 19:07:50 in the old macs...it was sort of insane 19:08:03 the new way isn't much different...but it is at least somewhat more sane 19:08:12 that's cool 19:08:18 is the sources included with the distribution? 19:08:24 of corse 19:08:29 neat 19:08:31 isforth.clss.net has the sources 19:09:38 ok...I'll think I will go take a look 19:10:16 :) 19:17:13 that version doesnt have vocabs yet. im working on that now. its a bit difficult with the kernel being 'assembled' nasm is a bitch heh4e 19:21:25 yeah, that sounds like a lot of footwork is required 19:24:40 i think ive got the macros to chain on different vocabs sorted 19:24:48 but ive got to change the code to work with them heh 19:24:51 and debug it 19:25:23 neat 19:25:30 can you do turnkey's and/or snapshots yet? 19:25:33 yes 19:25:38 neat 19:25:46 assemble the kernel and do 19:25:51 ./kernel.com 19:25:54 fload isforth.f 19:26:03 that loads the extensions and does an fsave 19:26:08 fsave saves with all headers present 19:26:23 the extend drops you back to shell 19:26:30 fsave and turnkey are an implied bye 19:26:37 but you will now have a ./isforth 19:26:51 turnkey does an fsave without headers 19:27:19 neat 19:27:22 im going to make each vocab compile into its own block of memory so i can flag them as being transient or not 19:27:33 a transient vocab will be discarded on turnkey 19:27:41 right 19:27:49 like. the whole of the compiler vocab (all creating words) will be discarded on turnkey 19:28:03 thats why isforth doesnt use any does> words in the compiler vocab 19:28:11 they all do ;uses dosomething 19:28:50 of corse... does> is defined heh 19:29:03 but you shouldnt create any does> words inside a transient vocabulary 19:29:09 for obvious reasons =) 19:29:13 hehe 19:29:38 transient vocabs will have to wait till i can metacompile tho 19:29:49 and that will have to wait till i can 'assemble' coded defs 19:30:12 so where are you located ? 19:31:20 jeez...the missing link in Forth...a genuine metacompiler 19:31:22 sounds fun 19:31:29 ya 19:31:37 oh...in NY State 19:31:39 ive never written a metacompiler before 19:31:49 im from upstate ny but i emigrated to indiana 19:31:52 apparently no one else has either 19:32:03 laxen and perry did : 19:32:05 heh 19:32:08 or they are simply interested in keeping the kernel under tabs 19:32:10 well, I meant recently 19:32:19 L&P was 1983, no? =) 19:32:23 and i believe the one in win324th is based on it 19:32:26 at least for f83 19:32:26 yes 19:32:31 its 83 standard 19:32:41 and the rest is silence 19:32:45 was their motto heh 19:33:03 haha 19:33:06 win32forth uses a modernised version of it 19:33:07 l 19:33:15 isforth is heavilly based on f83/fpc 19:33:16 but 19:33:25 i dont have the featureitis tz has hehe 19:33:39 i do however have alot of respect fot tom zimmer 19:33:49 tho i find some of his code to be a bit obscure 19:33:57 sometimes obfuscated 19:34:59 yeah, his F-PC was pretty neat from what I have seen of it 19:35:09 it was where i did most of my forth learning 19:35:10 Moore was/is a user of it 19:35:15 ya ? 19:35:17 cool 19:35:28 yeah, he's a fickle guy too with other people's software from what I have heard 19:35:31 maybe chuck would like isforth then. tho - its not realy a real forth yet 19:35:35 so am i 19:35:51 he has certain views about forth - i tend to agree with him 19:36:01 yeah 19:36:07 i dont even like the word CELL 19:36:12 it will NEVER be defined in isforth 19:36:26 yeah 19:36:36 if your too fucking lame to know what the cell size of your architecture is... go flip burgers :P 19:36:36 kind of silly :P 19:36:47 haha 19:36:59 but seriously though...I can't think of an honest reason why you need it 19:37:01 its an attempt to make your sources portable accross different processors 19:37:11 16 bit, 8 bit, 32 bit, etc etc 19:37:13 fuck that 19:37:22 that kind of mindset has Elizabeth D. Rather written all over it 19:37:23 this is forth. write it from scratch 19:37:28 of you cant. your an idiot 19:37:30 yes i know 19:37:40 i also respect her but dislike her idea of what forth should be 19:38:11 it is surprising how conventional how mindset about Forth is, particularly since she started it so early on 19:38:18 how mindset = her mindset 19:38:25 yea 19:38:29 started = started on 19:38:33 she and CM had a parting of ways 19:38:45 yeah...she's been trashing every one of his projects to this day 19:38:47 she wanted forth to be like c. he wanted forth to retain its simplicity 19:38:57 lol - she cant best them tho :P 19:38:59 particularly his chips 19:39:10 nope...and that is part of the flavour of the whole debat with those two :P 19:40:06 i post and read CLF alot these days. basically to give isforth some air time heh 19:40:17 aqnd most of her posts are attempts to sell her products heh 19:40:39 forth inc does a good job. but i dont like their forths personally 19:40:45 yeah 19:41:19 you saw the companies getting involved particularly in the mid-90's 19:41:26 in old copies of Forth Dimensions 19:41:38 i was in england then heh 19:41:40 if I bought a Forth Inc. product, I'd buy polyForth 19:41:45 it seems way cool 19:41:46 i was unemployed in england for 10 eyars 19:41:59 ive used polyforth 19:42:01 however old/obsolete it may be by everyone's definiion 19:42:08 ouch 19:42:12 it was too ans for me too 19:42:16 how did you manage? 19:42:24 well i was living with my mother 19:42:36 ive been unemployed NOW for about 9 months too 19:42:51 do you make your living primarily out of Forth or other programming>? 19:43:04 real time embedded control applications 19:43:10 contracting mostly 19:43:18 not had a forth contract heh 19:43:25 mostly its c. sometimes some asm 19:43:35 personally i think c is the most overrated language there is 19:43:48 and has absolutely NO fucking application in an embedded situation 19:44:01 should be coded either in pure assembler or forth 19:44:10 anything else is just short sighted stupidity 19:44:39 my last contract ended sometime in august :( 19:47:45 that's really cool...sorry about no Forth contracts 19:48:04 as far as embedded applications go, I basically agree with you as far as 'C' goes 19:48:21 heh 19:48:28 I really can't think of too many embedded work that 'C' is appropriate 19:48:30 unfortunatly most companies insist on c 19:48:39 I am just not saying "absolutely not" because I don't specialize in embedded work 19:48:44 and am trying to leave the door open for myself 19:48:51 in case I do find such a thing 19:48:54 so I am fence-sitting 19:48:57 i code c 19:49:02 but yeah...it doesn't seem practical at all 19:49:04 pay me and ill code it in basic :P 19:49:30 part of the reson im writing isforth tho is because i WANT to devvelop for forth but i HATE c 19:49:37 i specially hate libc and ncurses 19:49:43 bloat upon bloat 19:49:48 isforth needs NEITHEr 19:49:49 all the embedded applications I have given any thought to were very appropriate for Forth and/or assembler 19:49:53 and can do anything they can 19:50:01 yeah 19:50:03 yes 19:50:09 a novel idea! 19:50:22 soon as i got vocabs working ill be writing a console windowing system for isforth 19:50:35 nice 19:50:44 most of its already in place 19:50:56 if you have the sources look in isforth/forthsrc/console.f 19:51:00 erm no 19:51:03 term.f even hehe 19:51:11 what did you have in mind for the windowing? 19:51:28 actually i was thinking of somethign similar to the amiga 19:51:38 you can create screens - each screen can have multiple windows 19:51:51 each window can have a menubar or not 19:52:03 neat 19:52:05 and gadgets or widgets (amiga called them gadgets) 19:52:19 it would be like having more than one console in one console 19:52:40 so far, I have been envisioning an ION-like system for something like colorForth 19:52:41 only one screen can be displayed at a time but ill let ppl drag a screen down the console and uncover the ones behind 19:52:56 but haven't done anything about it =) 19:53:15 that's cool, although I admit again that my reference is poor, since I haven't spent any time with the Amiga 19:53:47 the amigas operating system was the best multi tasking operating system EVER designed 19:53:49 period 19:54:16 i loved my amiga hehe 19:54:24 and it was 68k too :P 19:54:38 yeah, 68K is neat 19:54:51 I run linux on my m68k macs. It's l33t. 19:54:56 heh 19:55:24 the amigas multi tasking is l33t3r :) 19:55:33 Heh. 19:55:34 you don't run macs for multitasking =) 19:55:36 Okay. 19:55:46 goshawk` : You do if they're running linux. :) 19:55:48 which macs do you use? 19:56:01 IIvx, IIsi, LCII, and SE/30 19:56:06 frac: even then, the interrupt priority isn't the hottest thing around 19:56:23 cool...SE/30 19:56:35 Ya, I can't get full linux working on that though. 19:56:40 why not? 19:56:44 Just the kernel booted and a tiny ramdisk. 19:56:51 Cause the SCSI controller is fux0r3d. 19:56:52 I've heard NetBSD works better on the SE/30 19:56:59 oh...literally 19:57:00 not in the code 19:57:03 Ya. 19:57:15 Yeah, I'm running OpenBSD on one of them. 19:57:19 I had to replace my SE/30's logic board twice 19:57:25 Really? Damn. 19:57:30 it's too sensitive for its own good 19:57:37 Good machines, though. 19:57:44 none of the six-slot mac II's were that bad 19:57:59 yeah, particularly with the internal grey scale card installed 19:58:04 which i can't afford =) 19:58:16 I think my only bitch is that it isn't 32-bit clean 19:58:26 makes using 80M of RAM kind of hard :P 19:58:39 Heh. Yeah, I've heard people buying other graphics cards for the SE/30 so they can put on colour monitors. Don't know why... 19:59:04 Ya, the 32-bit non-cleanliness is a bit of a hassle, but it's easy to get around. 19:59:20 yeah...I couldn't do the colour card thing either 19:59:21 80MB OF RAM IN AN SE/30?? WHY? 19:59:33 got to be the internal grey scale, or nothing... 19:59:38 Heh. 19:59:40 because I can =) 19:59:48 Fair enough. :) 19:59:59 all kidding aside, it's very pleasant under 7.5 (which I dread running, but sometimes I need to) 20:00:13 Heh. 6.0.8 all the way. 20:00:15 and it means I don't have to run virtual memory 20:00:26 I mean, an SE/30 is slow enough already =) 20:00:27 True. 20:01:03 I wanna get some 3thern8t hookups for my macs. That'd be cool. 20:01:21 yeah...I have an ethernet card in all of mine 20:01:26 Really? Nice. 20:01:30 Nubus? 20:01:53 well, the for the Mac II's, yes 20:01:59 the SE/30 has some whacked PDS 20:02:09 Interesting... 20:02:23 and one of the Plus (the other is backup) I have an EN/SC hooked up 20:02:40 which is a glacier slow SCSI ethernet adapter 20:02:45 Heh. Ya, I've got a Plus, an SE, and an SE/30. 20:02:51 ya lost me :) 20:02:56 not a good idea on a Mac Plus...which isn't particularly well known for good SCSI performance (even with the accelerator) 20:03:14 Ya, no chance of running cool OSs on the Pluses, either. 20:03:23 i4: sorry about that. just old mac garbage...nothing you need to worry about =) 20:03:24 My plus doesn't have a SCSI controller. 20:03:34 hehe 20:03:35 frac: you can boot up Minix within Mac OS, supposedly 20:03:39 but I've never done it successfully 20:03:39 Heh. Yeah. Old macs rock. 20:03:46 goshawk` : Yeah, minix is fun. 20:03:57 why doesn't your Plus have a SCSI controller? 20:04:04 I had to go patch the ls utility because using the -l switch would segfault. 20:04:06 is minix still supported or did he switch to linux :) 20:04:15 whom? 20:04:18 I dunno. It just didn't have one when I bought it for $5. 20:04:29 Tannenbaum? 20:04:29 does it have a "slot" for one at least? 20:04:37 i have a kaypro ii :) 20:04:38 hah, yeah...the author =) 20:04:38 Tannenbaum wrote Minix. 20:04:40 actually i have 3 20:04:43 i4: me, too! 20:04:44 i know he did 20:04:48 I have the 2X 20:04:56 I used to have a 4 20:05:06 Cool. 20:05:12 but that fell off a desk during a routine maintenance (dead CRT) 20:05:17 lol 20:05:31 I tripped over the connected power cable :P 20:05:31 I think they're putting out new Minixs. The latest version supports TCP/IP. 20:05:42 2.something. 20:05:43 comp.os.cpm is still quite active =) 20:05:49 Not for macs, though. 20:06:05 yeah...the Minix port for macs was a surefire adhoc afterthought 20:06:07 lol 20:06:41 "hey fuck it! let's just make it run as an "application" within a creepy slow version of system 7" 20:07:12 but it still is cool 20:08:09 frac: are you irc'ing off of one of your older macs right now? 20:08:28 No. 20:08:41 oh, ok 20:08:42 Linux saturn 2.2.18pre21 #1 Sat Nov 18 18:47:15 EST 2000 i686 unknown 20:08:49 BitchX-1.0c16+ by panasync - Linux 2.2.18pre21 20:08:56 oh, ok 20:08:57 Are you? 20:09:01 no way =) 20:09:29 Heh. I can load X on them. :) 20:09:31 using ShadowIRC 20:09:45 And I can even run GIMP, but it takes like 10 minutes to load. 20:09:49 Cool. 20:09:49 haha 20:09:52 that's neat 20:09:54 it runs? 20:09:56 Heh. It is. 20:09:58 Yup. 20:09:59 wow 20:10:04 that's genuinely cool 20:10:10 Debian's got packages for a lot of m68k stuff. 20:10:22 Actually, I440r, you can run linux on the Amiga, too. 20:10:25 yeah 20:10:30 ya i know heh 20:10:31 they have a bunch of packages 20:10:35 but my amiga is in england :P 20:10:37 Pretty much anything with a m68k and mmu. 20:10:40 Heh. 20:10:40 jForth is one that comes to mind 20:10:50 i never used jforth 20:10:59 www.softsynth.com 20:11:05 actually im avoiding all linux forths rite now 20:11:18 the author moved away from writing subroutine-threaded Forths, to Java and Forth's written in 'C' 20:11:30 ugh 20:11:38 sub threading is not forth 20:11:49 yeah...but it is an improvement over what he is doing now =) 20:11:53 and forths written in c are ana bomination 20:12:00 --- quit: Speuler (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 20:12:02 an abomination 20:12:09 haha, *exactly* 20:12:12 =) 20:12:12 Heh. Damn forth bigots. :) 20:12:16 haha 20:12:19 hell yes :P 20:12:27 purists 20:12:29 you mean 20:12:40 Heh. Whatever. 20:12:44 heh 20:13:35 man you dont know how long i sat idle in here alone with NO other forthers even knowing this place existed heh 20:13:48 well, I think subroutine-threading and native code is a compromise 20:13:54 to the flexibility for speed 20:13:57 so I agree with you 20:14:04 yes 20:14:09 but I think it has its places, particularly for pokey slow macines and bad architectures 20:14:18 i MIGHT make isforht a native compiler some day 20:14:21 so, I won't dump on that 20:14:25 make an extension that is 20:14:55 yeah, that would be kind of neat 20:15:05 if anything, it would shut up the C'ers 20:15:26 iforth hasnt shut them up - what makes you think isforth would heh 20:15:26 lol 20:15:38 gosh if you have my sources look in the file TODO 20:15:38 hah, I was just saying about the "speed" issues 20:15:46 it has my .plan in there heh 20:16:01 iforth is one of the fastest forths in existence 20:16:09 marcel hendrix realy knows his shit 20:16:19 are you sure? I question that after reading plan #4 20:16:31 20:16:39 heh 20:16:41 j/k 20:16:53 "4: Stop smokin crack!" 20:17:05 ya heh 20:17:13 who is marcel hendrix? 20:17:26 marcel hendrix is a forht coder from the netherlands 20:17:33 he has a company similar to forth inc 20:17:37 his forths are commercial 20:17:42 he posts on clf alot 20:17:46 oh...that sounds vaguely familiar 20:17:51 his forht is an optimizing subroutine threaaded forth 20:18:06 for PC's I presume? 20:18:09 native compiler 20:18:20 he has versions for other processors i believe 20:18:24 What is clf? 20:18:30 comp lang forth 20:18:33 Oh 20:18:36 Makes sense. 20:18:42 oh 20:18:44 do you have a url? 20:18:52 for what ? 20:18:56 marcel hendrix ? no 20:18:59 google him heh 20:18:59 yeah 20:19:00 ok =0 20:19:03 im sure he will show up 20:19:08 ok =) 20:20:11 you thought polyForth was too ANS-like? 20:20:16 yes 20:20:19 it preceded ANS by some time 20:20:24 i know 20:20:25 a lot of it was even coded by Mr. Moore 20:20:29 so, I am just curious 20:20:32 heh i know :) 20:20:38 I kind of liked the bag of tools it provided, too 20:20:45 i was working for joy mining machenery in england 20:21:06 i dont like block source files 20:21:11 no fscking need for em 20:21:20 fine. if yor on an embedded system 20:21:27 and forht does all the disk i/o they simplify things 20:21:42 but for a PC based forth theres NO fucking need to support block files 20:21:43 bleh 20:22:06 they make it IMPOSSIBLE to properly comment your code 20:22:25 polyforth only supported block files 20:22:26 bleh 20:22:55 and the version they were using had alot of ansified bullshit in it heh 20:22:58 you don't like blocks? 20:23:01 nope 20:23:02 I sort of like 'em =) 20:23:13 they are old 20:23:24 on a non-standalone system, I agree...they are totally useless 20:23:24 stone aged even 20:23:35 you making the PC do more work in ways it isn't normally accustomed to 20:23:36 just to 20:23:39 be "stone age" 20:23:47 so i agree...if it isn't a standalone Forth...screw it 20:23:53 but, if it is...I like it =) 20:24:08 use the underlying operating system to do i/o 20:24:14 and use FLAT files 20:24:14 exactly 20:24:45 for things like colorForth, though...gimme blocks 20:24:45 =) 20:24:46 however 20:24:56 i think they are starting to do things MUCH WORSE these days 20:24:59 NEEDS 20:25:08 haha, yeah =) 20:25:08 you put NEEDS foo.f in your source file 20:25:16 and if its not compiled already its included 20:25:20 automatically 20:25:23 its like in c where 20:25:27 it's brilliant shit...I am telling you 20:25:28 foo.h includes bar.h 20:25:32 yeah 20:25:34 spaghetti 20:25:39 bar.h includes fudge.h and blah.h 20:25:50 you have NO fucking idea who included what or where 20:25:54 its LAME 20:26:05 isforth allows you to nest up to 5 levels of includes 20:26:15 but suggests you put all your includes in ONE master include file 20:26:25 if you start a compile and get 20:26:28 bleh ? 20:26:31 half way thru 20:26:39 you will know which file you forgot to include 20:26:46 C really allows people to ignore "stuctured programming"...which was supposed to be the idea I thought 20:26:52 if you DONT - go work for macdonnalds - its more your level 20:27:04 mcdonnalds even 20:27:10 Mcdonald's? 20:27:18 capital 'D', sorry :P 20:27:19 ya. go flip burgers heh 20:27:40 i have NO sympathy for the lamers of this world 20:27:47 i resent their existance even 20:27:54 well, your master include file is basically how people are taught to use blocks 20:28:00 if they wernjt there i would have ajob right now 20:28:06 yes. 20:28:08 i know 20:29:06 just make blocks 80 chars wide and any numberr of lines deep 20:29:08 and ill be happy :P 20:30:35 yeah =) 20:30:56 gosh did you download isforth ? 20:31:05 on larger hard disks, I would rather blocks be more like 4K in size...which is kind of nice since you don't just use blocks for source storage 20:31:06 I did 20:31:14 are you able to make linux ? 20:31:20 make fbsd is disabled rite now heh 20:31:36 well, i am running on a machine that is running exclusively Mac OS 20:31:38 if make linux barfs with error messages you need a less braindead version of nasm 20:31:39 I had to go hunting down the latest nasm. 20:31:48 Couldn't find xdefine or some shit. 20:32:00 ya 20:32:08 %xdefine 20:32:20 if your nasm dont got that - you cant compile isforth 20:41:03 brb 20:41:05 --- quit: goshawk` ("ShadowIRC 1.1 PPC") 20:42:01 :) 20:48:23 --- join: goshawk` (goshawk@goshawk.dialup.access.net) joined #forth 20:48:32 *phew* 20:48:34 =) 20:48:58 heh 21:24:59 how many people use Mops these days? 21:25:16 I am guessing a lot :P 21:27:22 not me heh 21:27:26 brb 21:27:31 hah, sure thing =) 21:29:28 --- quit: goshawk` (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 21:29:42 --- join: goshawk` (goshawk@goshawk.dialup.access.net) joined #forth 21:29:46 wtf... 21:29:47 :P 21:31:51 mite disappear 21:31:55 electrical storm here 21:32:13 isn't indiana located in tornado central? 21:32:32 how do you get google to crawl a site ? 21:32:40 heh i hope not :) 21:32:45 just wondering 21:32:52 I have no idea :P 21:33:35 i just made a crappy isforth.clss.net web page heh 21:33:36 lol 21:36:29 thers no way to make google crawl a specific site 21:44:19 Yes there is, actually. 21:44:24 You've gotta look around a bit. 21:44:28 Hold up, I'll find it. 21:45:50 frac not according to the ppl in #debian heh 21:45:52 need to step out for a bit 21:46:02 see you soon 21:46:13 nice talking to you, i4 21:47:44 mops ? 21:48:10 Here, check this out: www.google.com/dirhelp.html 21:48:15 Look at the last question. 21:48:27 You can get it in the "Google Directory". 21:48:37 I could swear you could submit a URL to crawl too, though. 21:49:26 Ha! You can tell those #people in #debian they're cr4ck heads: www.google.com/addurl.html 21:49:32 :) 21:49:38 nite goshawk` :) 21:49:47 im causing trubble in #debian with my isforth heh 21:49:55 Heh. Me too. 21:50:06 i440r: what kind of trouble? 21:50:17 just talin forth and anti c :P 21:50:25 good 21:50:36 google.com/addurl.html 21:53:15 #debian is too spammy heh 21:53:49 Too many 'badasses' in #debian. 21:53:52 lol 21:54:01 mwilson is one of the badest 21:54:04 heh 21:54:06 Heh. 21:54:15 he flames those ppl he thinks lame 21:54:21 he flamed me constantly for months 21:54:22 I know the type. :) 21:54:32 he is sort of taken aback with isforth tho 21:54:41 i think ive been promoted to non lamer now heh 21:54:44 Good stuff. 21:59:15 he installed it? 22:00:50 mwilson has isforth 22:01:00 he knows forth. used it "years ago" 22:01:19 since isforth has been a working compiler he has been revisiting the language 22:01:46 what did he flame you about? 22:04:03 all kinds of linux shit lol 22:04:13 it was a constant battle between the two of us 22:04:22 him treating me like shit and me ignoring him heh 22:04:37 once he advances you beyong lamer he is ok with you :P 22:30:04 well im off to bed 22:30:15 --- quit: I440r ("time to either sleep or code. not sure which") 23:38:33 --- quit: goshawk` ("...") 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/02.04.27