00:00:00 --- log: started forth/02.07.12
00:19:55 --- quit: njd (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
00:27:18 --- join: njd (junk@njd.paradise.net.nz) joined #forth
00:43:18 --- join: SoapZZz (~flop@202-0-42-22.cable.paradise.net.nz) joined #forth
01:51:25 --- quit: njd (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
02:28:08 --- join: Fare (fare@samaris.tunes.org) joined #forth
02:41:33 --- join: njd (~junk@njd.paradise.net.nz) joined #forth
03:35:57 --- quit: njd ("i feel the need")
03:49:30 --- join: XeF4_ (xef4@hd5e24739.gavlegardarna.gavle.to) joined #forth
04:19:49 --- quit: SoapZZz (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
04:20:20 --- quit: XeF4_ ("pois")
04:22:11 --- join: njd (junk@njd.paradise.net.nz) joined #forth
04:30:41 --- join: XeF4 (tldauslk@12-245-116-85.client.attbi.com) joined #forth
04:31:29 * XeF4 sits drooling over an A4000 for EUR160
04:40:00 --- quit: XeF4 ("pois")
05:03:02 --- join: cleverdra (julianf@0-1pool36-41.nas2.florence1.sc.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth
06:24:40 --- join: Herkamire (~jason@wsip68-15-54-54.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth
06:25:55 --- join: Etaoin (~david@216.251.197.127) joined #forth
06:54:03 --- join: dsmith (dsmith@oh-strongsvillecadent1-1c-245.clvhoh.adelphia.net) joined #forth
07:28:49 --- join: tathi (~josh@68.15.54.54) joined #forth
09:13:59 --- join: I440r (~mark4@1Cust48.tnt2.bloomington.in.da.uu.net) joined #forth
09:27:27 --- quit: dsmith (Remote closed the connection)
09:57:58 --- join: ayrnieu (julianf@0-1pool36-41.nas2.florence1.sc.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth
09:58:07 <I440r> hi ayrnieu
09:58:21 <I440r> south carolina ?
09:58:34 <ayrnieu> Hello.
09:58:38 <ayrnieu> oui.  I am cleverdra.
09:59:21 <I440r> aha
09:59:24 <I440r> i knew that ;)
09:59:26 <I440r> heh
10:07:07 --- quit: cleverdra (Connection reset by peer)
10:07:24 --- nick: ayrnieu -> cleverdra
10:19:38 --- join: dsmith (~dsmith@208.40.56.34) joined #forth
10:41:48 --- quit: cleverdra ("Leaving")
10:52:40 <n_> hm
10:53:19 <kc5tja> Z
10:53:23 <kc5tja> err
10:53:24 <kc5tja> ?
10:54:52 * rob_ert is getting confused.
10:56:04 <n_> ?
10:56:57 <kc5tja> I'm already confused.
10:57:37 <rob_ert> Nice.
10:57:45 <kc5tja> And tired.
11:01:15 <I440r> confusion is my natural state :)
11:03:16 * n_ is starting research for a PPC emulator project'
11:03:28 <n_> my goal is to run OSX at near-native speeds on the x86 platform.
11:06:23 <I440r> n_ what changes did you make to my 8051 disassembler ?
11:06:26 <I440r> can i see them ?
11:13:15 --- join: XeF4 (wnjcdccj@12-245-116-85.client.attbi.com) joined #forth
11:14:03 <I440r> xe!
11:14:27 <I440r> made some changes to my windowing code, i now allocate buffer memory instead of grabbing it from head space
11:14:30 <I440r> a few other changes too
11:15:01 <XeF4> did you define >attrib too? :)
11:15:15 <I440r> it was defined
11:15:20 <XeF4> where?
11:15:34 <I440r> hang on ill look - i think its in window.f
11:15:42 <I440r> oooh
11:15:44 <I440r> heh
11:15:45 <I440r> lol
11:15:45 <I440r> no
11:15:53 <I440r> its in the new version of term.f
11:15:56 <I440r> i added it
11:16:00 <I440r> ill give you the definition
11:16:55 <I440r> err - color.f even heh
11:17:02 <I440r> : >attrib
11:17:03 <I440r>   dup $f and >fg
11:17:03 <I440r>   4 u>> >bg ;
11:17:30 <I440r> sorry heh
11:18:14 <I440r> ill be releasing v1.09b soon with all these minor changes plus the windowing stuff
11:18:21 <I440r> wanna add pull down menus first
11:23:59 <Herkamire> n_ you don't have a chance in hell of emulating PPC at near native speeds.
11:28:10 <kc5tja> Herkamire: Sure you do.  My 1GHz Athlon can easily emulate an 80MHz PowerPC.  :D
11:28:27 <Herkamire> 80MHz ppcs don't run OS X
11:29:11 <kc5tja> Actually, through moderately advanced code-morphing techniques, you can emulate PowerPCs at a significant fraction of the intended operating speed.
11:29:26 <Herkamire> like 1/4?
11:29:29 <kc5tja> That's how Sony Playstation emulators work on PCs.
11:29:30 <kc5tja> 3/4
11:29:31 <n_> Herkamire: uh, why not?
11:30:19 <Herkamire> because ppc is just as powerful as x86
11:30:49 <n_> the latest x86 chip, as a general rule of thumb, is usually faster than the latest PowerPC
11:30:56 <n_> as far as raw speed goes
11:31:00 <Herkamire> n_ no it's not
11:31:19 <Herkamire> n_ it's higher in MHz, but they usually have really long pipelines and stuff
11:31:22 <kc5tja> As far as clock rates go, yes.  As far as raw speed (e.g., computational performance) goes, they're about equal.
11:31:46 <n_> no way
11:31:47 <kc5tja> PowerPCs kick the x86's butt in everything they do, considering how much fewer transistors they have.
11:31:54 <kc5tja> Way.
11:32:03 <Herkamire> zactly
11:32:16 <n_> it's not just MHz
11:32:24 <kc5tja> Until you actually see one running, you'll continue to believe that x86 is "always better."
11:32:42 <n_> there have been numerous benchmarks/tests done that prove it
11:32:49 <n_> John Carmack had a couple in his .plan file
11:32:52 <n_> that he performed
11:33:03 <kc5tja> Yup.  Anyone can build a processor to excel at a benchmark.
11:33:03 <Herkamire> there have been numerous benchmarks/tests that prove that ppc is faster
11:33:12 <kc5tja> Unfortunately, I don't run benchmarks as my primary aplications.
11:33:51 <n_> well, that's beside the point anyway, even if it ppc is somehow *as fast* as x86, it will still enable the x86 to emulate it
11:34:00 <kc5tja> PowerPCs wipe the floor with x86 when running any application that does signal processing (PowerPCs have a DSP-style MAC unit as standard equipment, and I won't even begin to discuss AltiVec)
11:34:15 <kc5tja> Well, of course.
11:34:23 <kc5tja> Nobody is arguing that the x86 *can't* emulate a PowerPC.
11:34:37 <kc5tja> A meager 6502 can emulate a PowerPC.
11:34:53 <n_> i meant, effectively
11:35:03 * kc5tja agrees.
11:35:19 <kc5tja> I've seen code morphers remorph code between architectures and have astonishingly good performances.
11:36:07 <kc5tja> A 1GHz x86 can be expected to execute PowerPC code, remorphed, at approximately 750MHz performance, provided you do NOT use AltiVec instructions (those can be emulated too, but not at 750MHz.  With SIMD instructions, you're looking at around 500MHz best).
11:36:07 <Herkamire> kc5tja: cool :)
11:36:48 <kc5tja> Anyone who's used the Windows version of UAE knows what remorphed 68020 code is like -- it's indistinguishable from native x86 performance.
11:37:09 <kc5tja> And 68020 has *damn* complicated instructions to morph too!
11:37:09 <Herkamire> I don't know anything about code morphing. I didn't know anybody had done any good morphing of ppc -> x86
11:37:45 <kc5tja> Herkamire: You never will see it on the market; it was just a demonstration.  The reverse, however, has been done (x86 -> PPC), in Apple's SoftPC for their MacOS.
11:38:05 <n_> why won't we see it on the market?
11:38:07 <kc5tja> Also, DEC Alpha version of Windows NT did x86 emulation by remorphing x86 code into native Alpha code.
11:38:13 <kc5tja> n_: It just didn't sell.
11:38:37 <n_> softPC? did you mean VirtualPC perhaps?
11:38:55 <kc5tja> Yeah.  I knew it was one of those two.  SoftPC is for Amiga, and that's an interpretted system.
11:40:05 <Herkamire> I think OS X uses altivec quite a bit
11:40:22 <Herkamire> it must be optional though, because it runs on g3s
11:40:28 <kc5tja> It has to, since it doesn't use graphics acceleration at all yet.  Mac OS X.2 is expected to use hardware acceleration on top of AltiVec.
11:40:29 <n_> kc5tja: can you explain code morphing in a little more detail?
11:40:32 <Herkamire> or at least the older versions did
11:41:01 <kc5tja> Code morphing is when you convert one CPU instruction into another (like just-in-time compilation of Java Bytecode, only you're using x86 opcodes instead of JVM opcodes).
11:42:10 <n_> i've heard macos X.2 is going to have a fully hardware-accelerated GUI... the entire desktop will be rendered as a 3d scene
11:42:16 <kc5tja> A combination of static and dynamic code analysis results in a software managed "predecoded code cache" of sorts.  While you're executing x86 instructions, the instructions in the predecoded code cache are for, say, PowerPC or Alpha.
11:42:53 <kc5tja> n_: MacOS already uses scene graphs for its user interface.  Scene graphs kick-butt.  They literally are the wave of future GUI (and TUI) technology.
11:43:00 <kc5tja> Berlin also uses scene graphs.
11:43:05 <n_> scene graphs?
11:43:11 <n_> can you explain further, please?
11:44:00 <kc5tja> The display is described as a structured graphic (in the case of MacOS X, it's Display PDF.  In the case of Berlin, it's a series of CORBA objects, etc).  Think of a CAD program, where you can add individual graphic elements, then "group them together" into a single, easily manipulable object.
11:44:14 <Herkamire> OS X saves a pixel buffer for each window. It doesn't call your application's "draw" callback or some such to have it redraw the window ever.
11:44:18 --- quit: XeF4 ("pois")
11:44:29 <n_> Herkamire: btw, what kind of PowerPC processor are you using atm?
11:44:30 <kc5tja> To move a window in MacOS X, for example, all you need to do is change two coordinates on the window's graphic node.  The scene graph renderer (the video driver, basically) does all the rest.
11:44:33 --- quit: I440r (Excess Flood)
11:45:12 <Herkamire> n_: I have a dual g4 ppc system at home (450Mhz)
11:45:24 --- join: I440r (~mark4@1Cust48.tnt2.bloomington.in.da.uu.net) joined #forth
11:45:35 <n_> why do you run linux on it, and not osx? :)
11:45:36 <Herkamire> n_: here at work I have a single g4 around that speed
11:46:33 <Herkamire> n_: I was originally. then I was having trouble getting it to upgrade. I figured if I am going to spend time geeking with it I might as well do linux
11:47:09 <Herkamire> aside from some of the graphics stuff, linux is better :)
11:47:29 <n_> ;/
11:47:39 <Herkamire> Apple is really good with easy interfaces, but I really just want it to be simple and Extremely configurable
11:47:47 <n_> it must be pretty laggish on an older g4 too
11:48:02 <Herkamire> what do you mean older g4?
11:48:08 <Herkamire> g4s haven't been around that long
11:49:27 <Herkamire> with OS X I feel like I'm stuck in the interface
11:49:43 <n_> how responsive is the UI on your machine?
11:49:53 <n_> (aqua)
11:50:03 <Herkamire> it was pretty good
11:50:16 <kc5tja> There's a PowerBook G4 that a friend of mine has.  The GUI response is nearly instantaneous.
11:50:36 <Herkamire> n_ the graphics are not a problem
11:50:38 <n_> it's only going to get better, i think, with the new .2 hardware acceleration
11:50:41 <kc5tja> Because the scene graph renderer has all it needs to know about the screen kept in its own memory, there's no IPC to slow things down like in X11.
11:50:44 --- quit: tathi (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
11:50:46 <Herkamire> and that's _without_ hardware support
11:51:35 <kc5tja> Yup.  Berlin uses a similar technique, and while they're slower than X11, it's getting a lot better over time.  They're starting to move out of the "Get it working first" stage into the "Make it work better."
11:52:07 <kc5tja> Dolphin will absolutely use scene graphs, even for its textmode display interface.
11:52:14 <kc5tja> They're just too dang handy not to.
11:52:17 <n_> cool
11:52:27 <n_> what about vector graphics?
11:52:35 <n_> it seems OSX makes extensive use of them
11:52:36 <kc5tja> Scene graphs are all vector.
11:52:43 <n_> ah, right
11:53:00 <kc5tja> Bitmaps are actually used pretty rarely in MacOS X.
11:53:06 <kc5tja> A welcome change, if you ask me.
11:53:35 <n_> totally
11:53:42 <n_> vector graphics should be used more in UIs
11:53:46 * kc5tja nods
11:54:03 <n_> didn't IRIX use vector icons pretty early on?
11:54:09 <kc5tja> The only thing that ticked me off was, if vectors are used so heavily in MacOS X, why aren't the icons also vector?  :D 
11:54:18 <n_> oh right
11:54:23 <n_> they use different-sized bitmaps, right?
11:54:25 <Herkamire> kc5tja: that would be cool :)
11:54:26 <kc5tja> Yes.
11:54:30 <kc5tja> Just like NextStep
11:54:32 <n_> yeah
11:54:41 <Herkamire> in OS X all icons are 128x128
11:54:55 <Herkamire> (the system will scale them down for the user)
11:54:59 <n_> and they can be scaled up and down without much of a penalty
11:55:19 <kc5tja> Still, I think vector icons would be better.  :)
11:55:22 <Herkamire> the only place I've seen them scaled up is in a screensaver
11:55:23 <kc5tja> Take up less space and all.
11:55:35 <Herkamire> maybe
11:55:39 <kc5tja> But, I digress.  
11:55:42 <kc5tja> I am going to lunch now.
11:55:45 --- nick: kc5tja -> kc-food
11:55:55 <n_> mcdonald's? :D
11:55:58 <Herkamire> or you could make a really complex vector icon and it would mess with the system
11:56:07 <n_> actually, when i see "kc-food" it reminds me of KFC
11:59:23 <Herkamire> My OS will write directly to the screen and/or use the graphics card
12:00:19 <n_> you're writing an OS too?
12:00:30 <n_> got any code/webpages up for it?
12:00:47 <Herkamire> no
12:00:55 <Herkamire> so far tathi has done pretty much all of it
12:01:20 <n_> what language is it written in?
12:01:24 <n_> got any innovative plans for it?
12:01:43 <Herkamire> it's a native forth for PPC
12:01:49 <Herkamire> written in asm
12:02:15 <n_> oh
12:02:18 <Herkamire> he's got the core working from within linux
12:02:38 <Herkamire> and he's got a bunch of an assembler written in forth for it.
12:03:17 <Herkamire> it's almost to the point where we could re-write the core in forth and bootstrap it
12:07:46 <Herkamire> you can get the code at http://qualdan.homeip.net:5000/svn/fpos/  I don't think there's much documentation though
12:09:28 --- nick: n_ -> n_food
13:23:19 --- join: CrowKiller (Vapo_Rulez@cnq5-233.cablevision.qc.ca) joined #forth
13:37:49 --- nick: kc-food -> kc5tja
13:39:08 <CrowKiller> quote from the pbForth (mindstorm) project: "[...]  it's just
13:39:08 <CrowKiller> that programming in assembler is a little bit like driving a car by pushing the gas and brake pedals with your hands. "
13:41:09 <rob_ert> Heh. Well, I'd compare Forth with driving a car without breaks then.
13:41:20 <rob_ert> Not good for your head.
13:41:25 <rob_ert> (:
13:41:34 <kc5tja> I wholeheartedly couldn't disagree more.
13:41:46 <kc5tja> One should familiarize themselves with as many different programming styles as possible.
13:42:11 <kc5tja> Forth is one of the best programming environments there are.
13:42:17 <rob_ert> kc5tja: I wasn't quite serious.
13:42:38 <rob_ert> I don't think Forth is useless at all, and niether is assembly language.
13:43:19 <kc5tja> Everyone should learn to program with assembly language first.
13:43:35 <kc5tja> Actually, no -- I take that back.
13:43:50 <kc5tja> Everyone who's serious about programming should learn to program with machine language first.
13:43:58 <kc5tja> No assembly mnemonics -- just raw numbers.
13:44:14 <kc5tja> Load up the hex editor, and get cozy with your processor manual, and start programming.
13:44:24 <kc5tja> Programs don't need to be very big or complicated.
13:44:33 <kc5tja> Just enough to let the programmer know what the heck is going on.
13:44:51 <kc5tja> Then, just as they're about to complain about there needing to be a better way, go with assembly language.
13:45:20 <CrowKiller> if people programmed in machine language, forth chip would be popular ;p
13:45:20 <rob_ert> ...and then they see a kid with QBasic doing sine curves on the computer next to them.
13:45:26 <kc5tja> From there, go to Forth (in fact, having the person write their own Forth environment would be a great way to teach them semi-advanced assembly language while concurrently teaching them Forth!)
13:45:28 <rob_ert> CrowKiller: :)
13:45:45 <kc5tja> That's fine.
13:45:47 <kc5tja> Let them.
13:46:14 <kc5tja> Because once that person knows Forth, then he can move on to other language environments -- C, BASIC, Lisp, whatever.
13:46:39 <kc5tja> Forth is nice because it teaches the basics of writing an interpretter, AND writing a simple compiler.
13:46:46 <kc5tja> It can't be beat for that.
13:46:59 <kc5tja> But, I'm not in a position to change anything.  Oh well.
13:47:08 <rob_ert> Maybe that's good :)
13:47:38 <rob_ert> or not... your methods might scare a lot of wannabe programmers. But that might be good, too.
13:48:14 <dsmith> kc5tja: Bah.  Hex editors are for weaklings.  I entered my first program with front panel switches.
13:48:25 <dsmith> kc5tja: ;^)
13:48:33 <kc5tja> I learned to program first using BASIC, but from there, I moved to machine language, then to assembly, then to C.  
13:48:53 <rob_ert> I did it in the opposite order.
13:49:17 <rob_ert> BASIC -> Pascal -> C -> Assembly language / Machine code -> Forth ;-)
13:49:24 <dsmith> asm (or machine) is good to learn first. You understand pointers.
13:49:36 <rob_ert> Hehe.
13:49:39 <rob_ert> Good point.
13:50:07 * rob_ert imagines people who barley can understand how number systems work, trying to code in machine code.
13:50:14 * CrowKiller learned assembly for PIC/SX, then for Atmel's AVRs, and is now learning good forth/x86 assembly practices
13:51:05 <rob_ert> :)
13:51:20 <rob_ert> Well, I just recently learned asm for the 14-bit Microchip PICs.
13:51:23 <kc5tja> rob_ert: It's not at all that hard to imagine.  It's not as hard as you might think.
13:51:55 <rob_ert> kc5tja: Maybe not.
13:52:22 --- nick: n_food -> n_
13:52:26 <rob_ert> Hey n_
13:53:44 <n_> hi
13:54:26 <kc5tja> rob_ert: It's all in the way you present the material.  Teaching methodology is as important as the subject being presented.
13:55:06 <rob_ert> Yes.
13:55:21 <rob_ert> If they don't screw it up like the math education, sure, it might work.
13:55:28 <kc5tja> The reason teaching materials fucking sucks today is because big companies don't want the basics being taught.  Instead, they want to promote their products -- you don't learn machine language/assembly language in colleges today, you learn Java(tm), or Visual BASIC(tm).
13:55:59 <CrowKiller> that exactly why i dont spen my college years learning those languages
13:56:03 <CrowKiller> spend
13:56:21 <rob_ert> kc5tja: Yes, I think you have a point in there.
13:56:36 <kc5tja> Well, depends on your degree.  Here in the UC system of colleges, if you want a comp-sci degree of any kind, you **MUST** take and pass those courses.  It's part of the cirriculum.
13:56:37 <rob_ert> kc5tja: And the other half of it is stupidity and lack of knowledge.
13:57:01 <kc5tja> rob_ert: Yes, because the teachers are themselves brainwashed.  Many of them haven't a clue what goes on under the hood of a computer.
13:57:09 <n_> kc5tja: what's you opinion on Self/Smalltalk?
13:57:15 <CrowKiller> here we can do "nature sciences" course in 3 years and go to university into computer engineering or electronic engineering
13:57:16 <kc5tja> n_: Learn it.
13:57:19 <rob_ert> Indeed, and that created a weird situation.
13:57:22 <n_> your, rather
13:57:24 <rob_ert> Well, I will be back later.
13:57:28 * kc5tja would LOVE to learn Smalltalk in greater detail.  Ditto for Self.
13:57:34 <n_> ah
13:57:41 <kc5tja> But what I know of it, I'm totally in favor of those languages.
13:57:49 <kc5tja> Especially Self.  Self is *really* quite innovative.
13:58:12 * kc5tja just doesn't like abandoning the MVC GUI architecture in favor of whatever it is that Self has.
13:58:28 <kc5tja> I think Squeak people made a huge mistake moving away from MVC...huge mistake.
13:58:29 <n_> er
13:58:32 <n_> MVC?
13:58:36 <kc5tja> Model/View/Controller
13:58:41 <n_> ah ok
14:16:42 --- quit: Herkamire ("leaving")
14:18:22 * dsmith is away: Money in the bank!
14:26:54 * kc5tja is crying again -- this time for joy.
14:27:16 <kc5tja> I kicked off a more sophisticated chip test, since i couldn't recreate the errors we saw last time.
14:27:26 <kc5tja> That gives me all weekend to catch up on my documentation tasks.
14:27:31 <kc5tja> Finally, some peace and quiet...
14:34:00 --- quit: njd (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
14:36:03 --- quit: dsmith (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
15:22:59 --- join: Soap` (~flop@202-0-42-22.cable.paradise.net.nz) joined #forth
15:43:14 --- join: njd (junk@njd.paradise.net.nz) joined #forth
15:58:58 <I440r> Number of physicians in the US:  >700,000.  
15:59:00 <I440r> Accidental deaths caused by physicians per year:  >120,000 (AMA).  
15:59:00 <I440r> Accidental deaths per physician: >0.171 (U.S. Dept. of Health Human Services)   
15:59:00 <I440r> Number of gun owners in the US:  >80,000,000. 
15:59:00 <I440r> Number of accidental gun deaths per year (all age groups): >1,500.
15:59:00 <I440r> Accidental deaths per gun owner: 0.0000188  
15:59:05 <I440r> Statistically, doctors are approximately 9,000 times more 
15:59:07 <I440r> dangerous than gun owners.  "FACT: Not everyone has a gun, 
15:59:10 <I440r> but everyone has at least one Doctor." 
15:59:10 <n_> heh
15:59:10 <I440r> Please alert your friends to this alarming threat. We must ban doctors 
15:59:12 <I440r> before this gets out of hand.   
15:59:23 <I440r> :)
15:59:36 <n_> Guns don't kill people, people kill people, right? :)
15:59:55 <I440r> you got it :)
16:00:12 <I440r> er... doctors kill people!
16:05:49 <Fare> Gun's don't kill people. Bullet trauma and severe wounds kill people.
16:06:22 <n_> ...
16:06:28 --- quit: njd ("subaru tecnica international | nissan motorsports international")
16:06:32 <rob_ert> Ban guns. Don't argue about it.
16:06:42 <Fare> Ban wounds, don't argue about it.
16:06:58 <Fare> Anyone who's not in great shape will be directed to the elimination center.
16:07:06 <n_> can you make your argument any more obscure, fare?
16:07:19 <Fare> n_: let's bad health problems
16:07:30 <Fare> anyone with any health problem should be executed
16:07:44 <Fare> or else, s/he may increase the number of accidental deaths.
16:08:25 * rob_ert smells stupid arguments.
16:08:35 <n_> specious reasoning, i smell
16:10:03 --- join: njd (~junk@njd.paradise.net.nz) joined #forth
16:10:04 <rob_ert> Fe, fo, fi, fum, I smell the gun of an american.
16:11:15 <I440r> :)
16:11:43 <n_> I440r: have you ever shot a human for any reason?
16:11:52 <I440r> no
16:11:52 <n_> accident, on purpose, wahtever
16:11:55 <n_> oh
16:12:04 <n_> would you use it, like if someone broke into your house...
16:12:06 <I440r> no. never
16:12:09 <I440r> and i hope i never have to
16:12:13 <I440r> yes
16:12:20 <n_> if someone broke into your house... and threatened you with a gun..?
16:12:44 <I440r> they wouldnt need to threaten me with a gun if they broke in i would shoot them on the spot
16:12:51 <I440r> it is unsafe to assume that they are unarmed
16:12:57 <n_> ah
16:13:20 <n_> wouldn't they put you in jail for that, because if they are unarmed, it wouldn't look like self-defense, right?
16:13:30 <I440r> they were breaking in so they are the criminals. shoot first ask questions later
16:13:32 <I440r> no
16:13:35 <I440r> i would be within my rights
16:13:47 <I440r> assuming it was dark etc
16:14:04 <n_> ah
16:14:09 <I440r> if they broke in during the day and i had my gun ready i would just arrest them if they didnt pose a direct threat i wouldnt shoot them
16:14:22 <n_> arrest them?!
16:14:25 <n_> are you a police officer?
16:14:31 <I440r> citizens arrest
16:14:35 <I440r> dont need to be
16:15:12 <I440r> if they break in and i dont feel a threat or even a POSSIBLE threat i wont shoot
16:15:19 <rob_ert> Kill them all, and let The Forth sort them out.
16:15:24 <I440r> but if i dont know one way or the other they are gona aquire a few extra holes
16:16:00 <Fare> n_: coppers shoot abusively in over 16% of cases. Private individuals in less than 1% of cases.
16:16:01 <n_> heh
16:16:12 <n_> yeah, there's alot of police brutality in the US
16:16:19 <I440r> not realy
16:16:20 <Fare> stop giving weapons to cops. Give them to civilians.
16:16:24 <I440r> but thers definatly SOME
16:16:36 <n_> I440r: ever met a bad cop?
16:16:44 <I440r> fare that would work for me actually, most cops cant shoot worth a damn
16:16:48 <I440r> n_ no
16:16:50 <Fare> n_: ever met a GOOD cop?
16:17:00 <I440r> yes :)
16:17:00 <rob_ert> Fare: Civilians shooting at people are wrong in just 1% of the cases?
16:17:04 <n_> i've never even met A cop
16:17:21 <Fare> rob_ert: when civilians shoot at other people, in 99% of cases, they were right.
16:17:36 <rob_ert> Even included criminals?
16:17:38 <Fare> i.e. they shot at a robber/rapist/whatever who aggressed them.
16:17:42 <I440r> robert most cases where the civilians are shooting at people its because they SAW the crime
16:17:54 <I440r> most criminals go to great pains to hide their crimes from the police
16:17:58 <rob_ert> Criminals == civilians.
16:18:08 <I440r> so when the police start shooting its generally at the person they THINK is the criminal
16:18:10 <I440r> i.e. 
16:18:18 <I440r> some guy starts shooting me
16:18:20 <I440r> i return fire
16:18:25 <I440r> the cop sees me and shoots ME
16:18:45 <I440r> thats an over simplification but that sort of thing happens ALOT
16:18:47 <Fare> rob_ert: criminals aren't concerned by gun-ban laws
16:18:48 <rob_ert> Well, that's what happends when too many people are armed.
16:19:01 <Fare> rob_ert: crime is LOWER when everyone is armed.
16:19:17 <kc5tja> Your logic is flawed.  You do not shoot the criminal until he fires on you or until he pulls a gun and aims at you.  Then it's legally self defense.  Other than that, it's manslaughter.
16:19:21 --- join: futhin (~thin@h24-64-175-61.cg.shawcable.net) joined #forth
16:19:24 <rob_ert> Let's compare L.A. with Sweden then.
16:19:34 <rob_ert> And see how terribly wrong you are :)
16:19:45 <futhin> let me guess
16:19:48 <rob_ert> Sweden, or any other (compared to the US) peaceful country.
16:19:49 <futhin> rob_ert is talking to kc or i440r?
16:19:57 <futhin> or etaoin
16:20:02 <I440r> kc5 that depends. if he has already comitted a crime and i precieve an threat i cah preempt
16:20:06 <kc5tja> I440r, but n_ started it.  :D
16:20:08 <rob_ert> futhin: Fare and I440r :)
16:20:14 <I440r> california calls that the imperfect defense
16:20:17 <kc5tja> I440r: No, you cannot.
16:20:22 <I440r> i thunked they were gona kill me so i shot them
16:20:28 <I440r> kc5 yes you CAN
16:20:37 <kc5tja> Everyone who's tried that in this state has gone to jail.
16:20:39 <Fare> rob_ert: unless you move to sweden the kind of people you have in LA, let's not
16:20:39 <Fare> rob_ert: let's compare sweden to switzerland
16:20:48 <Fare> kc5tja: so a rapist is unarmed, the woman cannot shoot him?
16:20:49 <I440r> kc5 which state
16:20:55 <kc5tja> That is absolutely correct.
16:21:00 <kc5tja> I440r: California
16:21:01 <Fare> if the robber only has a knife, you cannot shoot him?
16:21:06 <kc5tja> Fare: Correct.
16:21:12 <kc5tja> You CAN stab him if he has a knife, though.
16:21:23 <futhin> can't shoot him in the leg?
16:21:24 <kc5tja> That is, you cannot use a weapon more powerful than what he has.
16:21:27 <kc5tja> Nope.
16:21:31 <Fare> if the racketeer is an unarmed black belt karateka, you cannot shoot him?
16:21:36 <I440r> kc5 bullshit. read up on the imperfect defense dood. if you even so much as THINK someone is going to kill you and you shoot them in selfe defense you are NOT guilty of murder
16:21:38 <kc5tja> Nope.
16:21:50 <kc5tja> Nope.
16:21:51 <futhin> a black belt karateka is considered a lethal weapon
16:21:53 <futhin> in court
16:22:01 <kc5tja> futhin: No they're not.
16:22:11 <kc5tja> They have no idea what to consider them.
16:22:14 <I440r> california has the second highest violent crime rate in the us i believe
16:22:19 <I440r> right after washington dc
16:22:21 <kc5tja> Some want them to be considered weapons, while others don't.
16:22:24 <I440r> neway i gotta go help someone
16:22:28 <I440r> bbl
16:22:46 <futhin> i can understand why there's a high violent crime rate in washington..  the politicians ;P
16:22:54 <futhin> naw
16:22:58 <futhin> nevermind
16:23:01 <kc5tja> And in California -- it's illegal to protect yourself.
16:23:18 <futhin> if i don't say anything stupid, i can pray and hope that nobody else on this channel says anything stupid
16:23:35 <futhin> also..  stupid can be replaced with "irrelevant"
16:24:45 <futhin> it's legal to buy a gun and walk around with it in california isn't it?
16:24:53 <rob_ert> I think I'll stay in a sane country.
16:24:58 * rob_ert sighs.
16:25:14 <Fare> futhin: in Washington, DC, the biggest criminals are not the ones in the street.
16:25:20 <futhin> sweden isn't a sane country actually.. but neither is u.s or canada 
16:25:25 <kc5tja> futhin: No.  You can purchase a gun, but you can't "just walk around with it".  It cannot be concealed, and you MUST have a license to carry the gun.  The gun must also be registered with the state, IIRC.
16:25:30 <Fare> rob_ert: a country has no brain. It can't be sane or insane.
16:25:58 <Fare> kc5tja: thus the criminals easily know who to assault
16:26:12 <futhin> fare: do you know about lyndon larouche?
16:26:17 <Fare> not much
16:26:31 <kc5tja> Fare: Criminals here don't care if you pack a gun or not.
16:26:45 <Fare> but tax evasion is a feat of resistance, not a crime, to libertarians.
16:26:52 <Fare> kc5tja: yes they do
16:27:09 <rob_ert> Fare: The people in it can be more or less insane. The people form the nation.
16:27:09 <futhin> he's campaigning for the 2004 federal elections in u.s and hardly anybody seems to know him
16:27:11 <Fare> they care if you have a concealed gun with which you could resist
16:27:24 <Fare> rob_ert: people are all insane
16:27:32 <Fare> they just differ in the way they are
16:27:45 <kc5tja> Fare: No they don't.  They're an equal opportunity bunch out here -- they'll attack you with or without a gun.
16:27:46 <futhin> tax evasion and tax avoision are two different things..  one is illegal the other is your duty to do :P
16:27:49 <Fare> futhin: I've heard the name before
16:27:56 <Fare> futhin: but that's about all
16:28:13 <rob_ert> Fare: Okay, I'm insane in a good way.
16:28:15 <Fare> one is legal and one is illegal -- both are your duty to do.
16:28:25 <futhin> sure
16:28:28 <futhin> that is true
16:28:38 <futhin> but the illegal one causes the government to come after you and harm you
16:28:44 <rob_ert> Yay, jail.
16:28:45 <futhin> which is hardly a rational thing to do :P
16:29:30 <Fare> but nonetheless a duty
16:29:38 <Fare> just like it was a duty to resist hitler
16:29:51 <Fare> even though it caused the gestapo to knock at your door
16:29:58 <Fare> and harm you
16:29:59 <futhin> fare: lyndon larouche seems to be like a chuck moore in the political realm..  seems to be very visionary, and actually understands the big picture, economics, etc..  he's with the republic party but i think he is probably somewhat libertarian
16:30:23 <Fare> I've heard of him as someone vaguely libertarian, and having problems with the IRS.
16:30:27 <Fare> but that's about all
16:30:44 <Fare> not a member of the libertarian party or anything, tho
16:31:06 <futhin> from what i've heard, his organization has been campaigning hard and making a lot of noise, apparently most of which isn't getting into the media..  
16:31:29 <futhin> his organization is saying that there's foul play happening, suppression, etc
16:31:29 <futhin> heh
16:31:45 <kc5tja> What else is new in this world?
16:33:25 --- quit: futhin ("bbl")
16:33:38 <Fare> the main media are heavily statists
16:34:17 <Fare> they support the demoblican party that earns government protection for their lobbies
16:34:39 <Fare> you ought to have seen the complete brainwash in France by mainstream media
16:34:57 <Fare> none would let Le Pen ever be heard, because he was not part of the establishment
16:36:10 <Fare> libertarianism is completely censored out of France's media.
16:36:11 <kc5tja> Didn't he also have a proven track record for doing some rather "naughty" things in the past though?  Like racism and other forms of discrimination?
16:36:30 * kc5tja seems to recall reading that in the local news here.
16:36:50 <Fare> so what?
16:37:13 <Fare> that's not half as bad as preaching trostkyism, and trotskyists did have extensive coverage
16:37:25 <Fare> and no, he's not openly racist
16:37:36 * kc5tja has not heard of trotskyism.
16:37:51 <Fare> trotsky was Stalin's failed rival.
16:38:11 <Fare> just as evil, just failed after killing much less million victims.
16:38:39 <Fare> Jospin was a Trotskyist
16:39:07 <Fare> and three openly trotskyists candidates were present with extensive press coverage.
16:39:25 <kc5tja> So if you're a Trotskyist, you're basically in primary support of communism then.
16:39:35 <Fare> Le Pen had none whatsoever, even after he won the first turn ballot, except lies against him.
16:39:47 <Fare> Trotskyist are communists indeed
16:40:18 <Fare> former Trotskyists control the french university, and many mainstream media.
16:40:47 <kc5tja> Why would that be though?  The French have always valued freedom and patriotism in the past.  That just doesn't make any sense.
16:41:03 <Fare> communists control most trade unions, that have an inflated influence thanks to government, despite having less than 15% of people adhering to any of them.
16:41:32 <Fare> don't confuse "The French" and "the french governmental institutions"
16:42:05 <Fare> our institutions are controlled by communists, socialists, and left-leaning conservatives.
16:42:10 * kc5tja sighs -- I'd like to visit France someday.  A friend of mine visited not too long ago, and loved it.  Lots of really nice pitures.  
16:42:14 <kc5tja> s/pitures/pictures/
16:42:36 <Fare> France is a nice country. Not as clean as Switzerland, but very nice.
16:42:47 <kc5tja> Plus, I want to try driving one of those MDI air cars.  :)  
16:43:02 <Fare> come before our politicians turn it into a third world country!
16:43:07 <Fare> MDI?
16:45:40 <n_> heh
16:45:42 <n_> Le Pen?
16:45:49 <n_> that's an... interesting name
16:45:57 <kc5tja> http://www.theaircar.com
16:46:39 <kc5tja> Fare: They have a factory in Luxembourg(sp?)
16:46:51 <n_> wow, aircar
16:46:58 <n_> i remember hearing about that
16:48:01 <Fare> so the taxes are so high in other parts of europe that it's worth it having a factory in expensive luxembourg? How sad!
16:48:41 <Fare> n_: Chirac even refused to publicly debate with Le Pen.
16:49:17 <Fare> it was the first prez election w/o a debate between the two major candidates.
16:49:41 <Fare> kc5tja: never seen any aircar in France.
16:50:29 <n_> that's pretty odd
16:50:36 <kc5tja> Hmm...
16:50:39 <n_> fairly underhanded, if you ask me
16:52:39 <kc5tja> Crap, I'm going to end up missing aikido today too... :(
16:52:52 <Fare> that's how the establishment treats those who are not part of it
16:52:53 <kc5tja> Unless this test goes *REALLY WELL* first time, which it will almost certainly not do... :(
16:53:12 <Fare> if we /kill you from irc, would it help?
16:53:22 <kc5tja> No
16:53:40 <kc5tja> I'm testing hardware, I was just asked to run another test run with previously untested settings.
16:54:23 <kc5tja> But I need to leave in 30 minutes if I'm to get to aikido on time, and it takes 30 minutes to run through ONE iteration of the test.
16:54:51 <kc5tja> I have to babysit it for at least 5 iterations before we have assurance that it'll work.
16:54:54 <Fare> then come back after aikido to see the result of the test
16:54:55 <kc5tja> >:(
16:55:16 <kc5tja> I can't.  Because if the test fails, we need to fix it so that it'll run over the weekend.
16:55:29 <Fare> can't you come back later?
16:55:54 <kc5tja> Well, yes, but I can't fix a broken test suite alone.  I need the chip engineer present to help me debug.
16:56:07 <n_> let's drag kc5tja into #darkalley and /kill him
16:56:08 <n_> ;)
16:56:33 <kc5tja> Forgive me for not having a sense of humor.
16:56:56 <Fare> n_: with an electron gun
16:57:00 <kc5tja> But all this week, my days at work have been the most infuriating of my life for the last week.
16:59:14 <n_> ;(
16:59:36 <n_> quit your job and find a new one? badger the boss to give you some much-needed time off? :/
17:00:21 <I440r> i need more time off work, ive only had 11 months
17:00:28 <n_> heh
17:00:37 <n_> aren't you going to run out of money soon? :(
17:00:48 <I440r> im leechign off my dad rite now heh
17:01:05 <I440r> and my recruitor foned today about a job in vegas with a company ive already done one contract with
17:01:23 <I440r> then 2 hours later another job came accross his desk taht literally SDCREAMED me at him
17:01:32 <I440r> he submitted my resume and they wanna talk to me monday
17:02:28 --- part: njd left #forth
17:05:16 <n_> cool
17:05:31 <n_> have you ever gotten a job doing forth work?
17:05:44 <n_> i can't imagine a huge market for those kind of contract jobs but that would be really neat if you could find one
17:06:46 <kc5tja> I just got back from a week-long vacation.
17:08:03 <kc5tja> In all honesty, I should never have taken the vacation when I did.  But I couldn't take it any other time, since that's when my family was visiting.  
17:09:34 <kc5tja> But enough of that...I'll just miss aikido tonight and sit on my butt trying to pass time on the ham radio.
17:10:44 <Fare> I440r: if they recruit more people, I'm willing to come
17:10:59 <Fare> kc5tja: or waste your time on IRC
17:11:16 <I440r> fare you wanna chat with my recruitor ?
17:11:21 <I440r> he might be able to place you somewhere :)
17:16:39 <kc5tja> Nahh, I do that all day at work.  :)
17:20:26 <kc5tja> But of course, I'll probably end up on IRC anyway, since a couple of my ham radio friends hang out on an IRC channel.
17:22:43 <Fare> sure, is he online?
17:34:56 --- join: tathi (~josh@ip68-9-68-213.ri.ri.cox.net) joined #forth
17:41:17 --- nick: Fare -> FareSleep
17:41:20 --- quit: FareSleep ("Off to new adventures")
17:49:53 <n_> so
17:50:03 <n_> how does IRC compare with good old-fashioned hamming?
17:50:16 <n_> was the widespread adoption of the internet the death of hamming?
17:53:12 <CrowKiller> i think there was internet "dial-out" to wireless ham-made networks
17:53:25 <CrowKiller> a bridge thats the name
17:53:53 <CrowKiller> like a fidonet brige into internet, I read some bits about their existence
17:54:23 <CrowKiller> and i think hams had some too to get on the internet
17:54:59 <CrowKiller> homemade spread spectrum network would be sweeeeeet! =)
17:55:41 <CrowKiller> i think there's 115200 bps wireless modems but they dont have much range, and its kind of pricey
17:56:14 <CrowKiller> any im a bit off topic ;p
17:56:18 <CrowKiller> anyway
18:05:53 --- join: njd (junk@njd.paradise.net.nz) joined #forth
18:08:08 --- quit: njd (Client Quit)
18:22:18 --- nick: n_ -> n-away
18:22:43 <CrowKiller> does the stack on x86s can grow up?
18:23:33 <kc5tja> No
18:23:38 <kc5tja> Stacks always grow down on x86
18:27:59 <kc5tja> OK, I'm going to go home now.
18:28:11 <kc5tja> The test is working, and I can sort of relax.
18:30:14 --- quit: kc5tja ("THX QSO ES 73 DE KC5TJA/6 CL ES QRT")
18:48:07 --- join: TheBlueWizard (TheBlueWiz@ip-216-25-202-18.vienna.va.fcc.net) joined #forth
18:48:12 <TheBlueWizard> hiya all
18:50:01 <CrowKiller> hi
18:50:18 <TheBlueWizard> hiya CrowKiller
18:52:08 <TheBlueWizard> CrowKiller: um.../j dotgnu
18:52:12 <TheBlueWizard> oops
18:52:27 <TheBlueWizard> I totallyfingerfarted on that one
18:52:36 <CrowKiller> lol
18:52:38 <TheBlueWizard> lol
18:53:57 <TheBlueWizard> CrowKiller: ok...how did the QNX demo disk try out go?  just curious
18:54:33 <CrowKiller> hmmmm it didnt detected my network card
18:54:36 <CrowKiller> its a realtek
18:54:41 <CrowKiller> pretty standard
18:54:59 <TheBlueWizard> hmm...how old is that card?
18:55:04 <CrowKiller> i also found ou my old trniux disquettes
18:55:21 <CrowKiller> hmmmm its made of the first realtek chipset sent on the market
18:55:35 <CrowKiller> Trinux disquettes
18:55:48 <CrowKiller> i used them as my war tools back then
18:55:52 <CrowKiller> on the school network ;p
18:56:35 <CrowKiller> never used DoS or DDos, just sniffing things around and building a map
18:56:51 <TheBlueWizard> hmm re: the card...if I remember right, the QNX demo disk was released in '99...that's why I was asking
18:57:19 <TheBlueWizard> cool re: Trinux stuff...
18:57:37 <CrowKiller> wonder if teh trinux distrib is existing, that a small linux system in 1 floppy with downlaodable security tools
18:57:40 <TheBlueWizard> I never have a real opportunity to hack on network in that fashion
18:58:34 <TheBlueWizard> I think there exists such floppy based linux distro w/ security tools, though obviously the selection has to be quite few and small
18:59:00 <CrowKiller> today, wireless hubs make a lot of things possible, if I had more cash i know i would be doing Mission: Impossible stuff, such as hacking into organisation from within ;p
18:59:22 <TheBlueWizard> lol
18:59:56 <TheBlueWizard> I wouldn't touch wireless hubs...too much security risk
19:00:52 <CrowKiller> everyone walking aroun with their linux laptops saying hey theres an entrypoint in a network here, lets hack it, i would love to put HackStations throughout a city
19:01:10 <CrowKiller> im sure things like that will be happening at h2k2
19:01:56 <CrowKiller> the hacking conference in newyork IIRC, some people even had memos to be aware of "social engineering" practises by the attending crowd lol
19:02:38 <TheBlueWizard> for hacking/cracking purpose that'd be a blast, yeah...but for quotidian operations, that won't be fun
19:02:51 <TheBlueWizard> lol
19:03:15 <CrowKiller> ipsec tunnels hardcoded into the drivers in assembly
19:03:30 <CrowKiller> secure driver versions could be made to deal with that
19:03:56 * TheBlueWizard makes a lot of badges that read "Social Engineers For Hire...A Friendly Way To Humiliate You!" :)
19:05:45 <CrowKiller> hehehe, seriously kevin mitnick was using this technique a lot, mapping a network, then convincing a person at phone that he was a real technician and he needed a password bad, or a fellow user asking for help from a "friendly coworker"
19:06:37 <CrowKiller> a more forth subject: @+ is  pop lol
19:06:56 <CrowKiller> the a is truly used as another stack pointer
19:07:03 <CrowKiller> in chuck's machines
19:07:49 <TheBlueWizard> @+ is used as another stack pointer?
19:08:02 <CrowKiller> in chuck's c18
19:08:07 <CrowKiller> and surely others
19:08:09 <CrowKiller> the @
19:08:21 <CrowKiller> is decomposed into A! and @A
19:08:30 <CrowKiller> put the value from the TOS into teh A register
19:08:38 <TheBlueWizard> I see
19:08:41 <CrowKiller> then do the actual fetch using the address in the a register
19:08:51 <TheBlueWizard> comprendo
19:09:39 <CrowKiller> the A is used as another stack pointer, yes
19:09:50 <CrowKiller> so in forth a third stack
19:10:03 <TheBlueWizard> sounds sensible to me...leaving the value in the A register has the advantage that it can be incremented etc...so one can turn a chip using that into an el cheapo DMA :)
19:10:35 <CrowKiller> or using the A as a stack pointer into a ready-full data stack
19:11:39 <TheBlueWizard> hmm...dumping the content of stack into the memory pointed to by A....yeah
19:11:42 <CrowKiller> i am writing code for a forth in x86 assembly and this came to me when i looked at the macros represnting the primitive words
19:11:54 <CrowKiller> the pop and @+ are the same
19:12:08 <TheBlueWizard> I see :)
19:12:35 * TheBlueWizard wonders whether I440r would notice his eminent presence....
19:12:50 <I440r> heh
19:12:54 <I440r> oh look
19:12:56 <I440r> its tbw!
19:13:15 <TheBlueWizard> yaah! hiya I440r!!! :)
19:13:25 <I440r> :)
19:13:32 * TheBlueWizard is happy to be noticed!
19:13:46 <TheBlueWizard> so, how's life?
19:13:57 <I440r> not too bad
19:14:03 <I440r> might have a contract soon...
19:14:06 <I440r> fingers are crossed heh
19:14:10 <I440r> interview monday on fone
19:14:19 <TheBlueWizard> cool...me, I went to DebConf2 last weekend :)
19:15:00 <TheBlueWizard> heh...at the bottom of the webpage that contains the pictures, you can find my face there :)
19:19:42 --- quit: tathi ("leaving")
19:21:16 <TheBlueWizard> good luck with the interview
19:27:24 --- quit: TheBlueWizard (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net)
19:27:25 --- quit: n-away (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net)
19:29:58 --- join: TheBlueWizard (TheBlueWiz@ip-216-25-202-18.vienna.va.fcc.net) joined #forth
19:30:05 <TheBlueWizard> hiya all again
19:32:44 <CrowKiller>  re
19:32:59 --- join: n-away (adlez@pcp01518417pcs.reding01.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth
19:33:25 <TheBlueWizard> hiya CrowKiller...it seems this IRC network is hiccuping real bad
19:34:20 <CrowKiller> yeah i have a lot of notices in the server window asking for bandwidth etc
19:34:49 <CrowKiller> yesterday i think they held a live radio braodcast event, for the whole openprojects.net network
19:35:14 <CrowKiller> i was noticed via a server  notice also iirc
19:35:36 <TheBlueWizard> hmm...that's a bit idiotic, if you ask me
19:37:21 <n-away> wow really?
19:37:24 --- nick: n-away -> n_
19:40:52 <TheBlueWizard> gotta go...bye all
19:41:14 <TheBlueWizard> I440r: good luck with the interview on Monday!
19:41:34 <CrowKiller> see ya TheBlueWizard
19:41:39 <I440r> bubye
19:41:42 <I440r> sorry was afk
19:41:50 <TheBlueWizard> np :)
19:41:53 <I440r> am still gotta go eat :)
19:41:58 --- part: TheBlueWizard left #forth
20:01:44 --- join: njd (~junk@njd.paradise.net.nz) joined #forth
20:01:48 --- quit: CrowKiller ("gonna test a little fresh out of the oven mbr")
20:25:49 --- quit: njd ("BitchX-1.0c19 -- just do it.")
20:27:39 --- join: njd (~junk@njd.paradise.net.nz) joined #forth
20:52:27 --- quit: njd ("[BX] This BitchX's for you")
20:54:36 --- join: njd (~junk@njd.paradise.net.nz) joined #forth
21:09:12 --- quit: njd ("[BX] Time wasted: all of it")
21:10:35 --- join: njd (~junk@njd.paradise.net.nz) joined #forth
21:14:48 --- quit: njd (Client Quit)
21:16:15 --- join: njd (~junk@njd.paradise.net.nz) joined #forth
21:17:06 --- quit: njd (Client Quit)
21:25:57 --- join: futhin (~thin@h24-64-175-61.cg.shawcable.net) joined #forth
21:31:53 --- join: njd (junk@njd.paradise.net.nz) joined #forth
21:39:43 --- quit: I440r ("watching tv")
21:54:57 --- quit: futhin ("bye")
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/02.07.12