00:00:00 --- log: started forth/02.10.01
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03:17:44 <Serg_Penguin> hi
03:17:51 <Robert> Hi, Serg_Penguin.
03:18:07 <Serg_Penguin> how is u'r avr board ?
03:18:14 <Robert> Fine ;)
03:18:26 <Serg_Penguin> wrote vm ?
03:18:26 <Robert> Check http://robert.zizi.org/ , The project TinyVM.
03:18:44 <Serg_Penguin> later - firewalls, logs...
03:19:10 <Robert> OK.
03:19:15 <Robert> Well, it's under development.
03:20:57 <Klaw> nforth isn't accessable
03:22:00 <Robert> Hm.
03:22:01 * Robert checks.
03:22:58 <Serg_Penguin> can one gimme the book 'linux kernel in comments' in file ?
03:23:16 <Serg_Penguin> i wanna think is it possible to make posix krnl in forth
03:23:59 <Robert> Odd.
03:24:06 <Robert> Why do you think that is?
03:24:08 <Robert> It's world readable.
03:24:44 <Serg_Penguin> 'comments' are NOT ones found in src
03:25:02 <Serg_Penguin> its NOT just printed src
03:25:41 <Robert> Now what the fuck..?
03:26:05 <Serg_Penguin> its a book _about_ linux krnl by another expert, not from devl team
03:26:05 * Robert thinks something is very wrong.
03:27:06 <Serg_Penguin> but i dunno want rewrite linux krnl in forth - Andy Tannenbaum was right, monolyte kernels suxx
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03:41:55 <Robert> Heh, finally.
03:42:06 <Robert> Klaw: Now it works ;-)
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03:45:48 <Serg_Penguin> re hi
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04:00:53 <Serg_Penguin> re hi
04:01:41 <Robert> Hi.
04:03:32 <Serg_Penguin> idea of writing yet another forth os sticks in my head :)
04:03:50 <Robert> Hehe.
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04:04:07 <Serg_Penguin> do u believe in such thing ?
04:04:08 <Robert> I'm going to write an OS in a Forth-like language for thre TinyVM-
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04:04:40 <Serg_Penguin> what will it l00k like ?
04:04:50 <Robert> Yes, I do... maybe not for general use, but for a crazy forth freak, it'd bring some entertainment to his cave.
04:05:04 <Robert> Like... C64 BASIC, but with Forth :P
04:06:07 <Serg_Penguin> :)))
04:06:55 <onetom> what is tiny vm?
04:07:07 <Robert> If I had the resources and skills, I'd make a pocket calculator, with a real keyboard, using Forth.
04:07:19 <Robert> Today's calculators aren't nice to program :-/
04:07:25 <Robert> onetom: http://robert.zizi.org/
04:07:35 <Serg_Penguin> better write forth OS for Palm Pilot
04:07:49 <onetom> Robert: try palm ;)
04:07:50 <Serg_Penguin> it's PalmOS really mega suxx
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04:09:09 <Robert> onetom: Heh...
04:09:13 <Robert> Well, nah.
04:09:24 <Robert> I want my own stuff! >:)
04:09:50 <onetom> Serg_Penguin: not really mega, but still kilo sux
04:10:42 <Robert> I like the idea of a Forth dictionary, where everything is collected at one location :)
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04:11:40 <Serg_Penguin> re hi
04:11:57 <Robert> :)
04:12:02 <Robert> 13:10 < onetom> Serg_Penguin: not really mega, but still kilo sux
04:12:23 <Serg_Penguin> :)
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04:12:43 <Serg_Penguin> hi cleverdra
04:12:50 <cleverdra> hello Serg
04:14:43 <Robert> Hi cleverdra :)
04:15:35 <cleverdra> hello Robert
04:15:57 <Serg_Penguin> so writing standalone forth 4 palm will be rulez
04:16:23 <cleverdra> There are two of those, already.
04:16:34 <cleverdra> DragonForth and Quartus Forth
04:17:57 <Serg_Penguin> i mean scratch it's bulky brain-damnaged OS and write Forth what will take its place
04:18:20 <Serg_Penguin> but i'm not interested well enough to do it
04:18:51 <Serg_Penguin> will Palm have enough features to be fully standalone comp...
04:19:25 <cleverdra> oh.  Palm is hardly bulky or brain-damaged, IMO.  What makes you think that it is?
04:20:17 <Serg_Penguin> trying to write some progz 4'r it in C - gcc and CodeWarrior
04:20:36 <Serg_Penguin> gonna swap cd-rw's being tested....
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04:25:52 <Serg_Penguin> re hi
04:29:45 <galexand> hey serg that's exactly what i wanted to do
04:30:04 <Serg_Penguin> what ? forth 4 palm ?
04:30:04 <galexand> but then my palm started to die and now i'm using the ipaq so shoving a forth under that will be more pleasant on some levels
04:30:11 <galexand> (and less satisfying in others)
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04:30:21 <Serg_Penguin> hi LuckyPhil
04:30:27 <LuckyPhil> Hey there
04:30:27 <galexand> linux on the ipaq
04:30:34 <Serg_Penguin> what about enth ?
04:30:45 <LuckyPhil> doing well.. writing a newbie guide
04:31:07 <Serg_Penguin> could u separate bootloader and enth itself ? i wanted but no time...
04:31:45 <galexand> enth?
04:31:58 <LuckyPhil> probably.. haven't had the time to look at it yet either
04:32:03 <Serg_Penguin> enth -> LuckyPhil
04:32:08 <galexand> heh oh
04:32:23 <LuckyPhil> enth != LuckyPhil 
04:32:29 <LuckyPhil> I only use it, not wrote it
04:32:30 <LuckyPhil> :)
04:32:52 <Serg_Penguin> -> = 'was said to'
04:34:34 <LuckyPhil> oh.. ok :)
04:35:39 <Serg_Penguin> anyway, i dunno believe in it as Forth OS
04:36:04 <LuckyPhil> its about as stand-alone as I've seen so far
04:36:54 <Serg_Penguin> what meaning is in such kind of forths, beyond micro-controllers, even x86-based ?
04:38:47 <LuckyPhil> what do you mean by that?
04:39:20 <Serg_Penguin> for what real task enth (and its alikes) can be used ?
04:39:51 <LuckyPhil> probably a good learning tool, if nothing else
04:39:57 * Serg_Penguin is not trying tu insult anyone
04:40:33 <cleverdra> Serg - I used to carry an Enth floppy around so that, when bored with my parents in local stores, I could load Enth on a PAC (Publicly-Accessible-Computer) and code a little -- sometimes leaving a little programming running.
04:41:15 <Serg_Penguin> :)
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04:42:18 <LuckyPhil> how much do you use enth cleverdra
04:43:00 <cleverdra> Not at all, and not for a while.  I stopped using Enth when 0.3 wouldn't work on any of my computers.
04:43:45 <LuckyPhil> Ah.. 'cause the video.. :)
04:44:03 <LuckyPhil> its a pitty that it doesn't work in vmware either. :(
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04:46:34 <LuckyPhil> Welcome back Serg
04:46:51 <Serg_Penguin> > cleverdra, do u believe what something like enth will evolve in fullu-functional OS ?
04:47:17 <Serg_Penguin> or even partially, like DOS or AmigaOS ?
04:47:56 <cleverdra> Serg - Enth is functional enough for many pseudoembedded purposes.  Enth is more functional than DOS already -- that's probably a bad example on your part.
04:48:14 * LuckyPhil agrees with cleverdra
04:48:16 <cleverdra> What Enth really needs is more device drivers.
04:49:06 <cleverdra> And maybe a more involved process model, but what it is right now can go different ways and different models.
04:49:22 <Serg_Penguin> and filesystems...
04:49:57 <cleverdra> oh, filesystems is an idea, too.
04:50:00 <LuckyPhil> that's if you want to use files
04:50:10 <Serg_Penguin> i thinked about IDE driver from ColorForth, but someone ( maybe LuckyPhil ) said he tryed but some words missing
04:50:19 <cleverdra> You probably want files =)  But you may not want a traditional FS.
04:50:29 <LuckyPhil> i was playing with the ide controller last night
04:50:35 <Serg_Penguin> i am FORCED to use files because others do
04:50:49 <Serg_Penguin> succeed ?
04:50:52 <LuckyPhil> still learning how the controller works
04:51:05 <LuckyPhil> i can read the status register, etc
04:51:18 <LuckyPhil> as for reading/writing.. no luck yet.
04:51:19 <cleverdra> *shrug*  I like files.
04:51:32 <Serg_Penguin> i would just rip code from linux cernel...
04:51:37 <LuckyPhil> I need a good IDE spec thingy
04:51:49 <cleverdra> Serg - probably *much* easier to see the ASM that's out there for that.
04:52:26 <Serg_Penguin> and what about ColorForth IDE code ?
04:52:40 <cleverdra> Serg - in Enth, it's easier do use the PCI directly -- unless you want to access the keyboard, where you'll interact badly with Enth's own accesses.
04:53:27 <LuckyPhil> Colorforth's IDE driver.. is too colorforth specific.
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04:54:04 <LuckyPhil> the classic "If you've seen one forth, you've seen one forth"
04:55:43 <LuckyPhil> cleverdra, do you know of any good places where I can get the PCI IDE driver specs from?
04:58:20 <cleverdra> LuckyPhil - I used to, but I don't anymore.
04:58:31 <LuckyPhil> they are hard to find.
05:01:20 <cleverdra> starting looking from http://www.visopsys.org/osdev/, which I just found.
05:01:58 <LuckyPhil> ta
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05:05:13 <Serg_Penguin> re hi
05:05:35 <Serg_Penguin> does enth have read-port and write-port, or can one add them easily ?
05:06:11 <cleverdra> It has them, but it calls them PC! PC@ P! P@, IIRC
05:06:25 <LuckyPhil> yes it does.. what vleverdra said. :)
05:07:31 <Serg_Penguin> ok, so porting ColorForth IDE is easy
05:08:15 <Serg_Penguin> writing fat32 driver will be harder...
05:08:35 <LuckyPhil> give it a go Serg
05:11:34 <Serg_Penguin> as i see it
05:11:36 <Serg_Penguin> :
05:12:06 <Serg_Penguin> name>blk - get a name and output cluster num in fat
05:12:15 <Serg_Penguin> blkr+
05:12:26 <Serg_Penguin> - next cluster to read
05:12:44 <Serg_Penguin> blkw- - next free cluster to read
05:12:55 <Serg_Penguin> blkw+, err
05:13:35 <Serg_Penguin> blk@, blk! - read/write clusters w/ given num
05:14:41 <Serg_Penguin> ....
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05:20:32 <Serg_Penguin> what do u think on it ?
05:20:45 <Serg_Penguin> and look how it's done in linux...
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05:32:15 <Serg_Penguin> re hi
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06:35:29 <Robert> Hi there :)
06:47:28 <tathi> hi Robert 
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07:34:39 <Serg_Penguin> re hi
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12:41:33 * Herkamire hit's the lag monster in the dangly bits
12:45:30 <onetom> Herkamire: hey! i didnt understand ur msgs about imcom
12:45:46 <onetom> do u have an own client?
12:45:50 <cyberlok> http://serverdisk.servehttp.com/hosts
12:47:06 <onetom> cyberlok: dillo show nothing..
12:47:09 <onetom> shows
12:47:46 <cyberlok> nothing?
12:47:48 <cyberlok> what you using?
12:47:56 <onetom> dillo
12:48:00 <cyberlok> hmm
12:48:07 <onetom> but mozilla worx
12:48:07 <cyberlok> will have to debug that browser
12:48:24 <cyberlok> it works with wget mozilla ie netscape konquerer 
12:48:26 <cyberlok> and lynx
12:48:47 <cyberlok> I sware I debug this 1k httpd way to much 
12:48:48 <cyberlok> :)
12:50:07 * cyberlok looks up dillo
12:52:30 <cyberlok> what does dillo say when you try and get the file?
12:54:21 <cyberlok> according to thier bug logs
12:54:26 <cyberlok> I think it has to do with this 
12:54:27 <cyberlok> When HTTPing anything other than text, HTML or images, 
12:54:27 <cyberlok> dillo gives up
12:54:39 <cyberlok> which means that is probably not a fault of my httpd 
12:54:46 <cyberlok> I will have to take a closer look though
12:55:37 <tathi> cyberlok: my dillo gets that URL just fine
12:56:12 <tathi> except for "HTTP warning: Server didn't send Content-Type in header."
12:56:13 <cyberlok> so it works ? 
12:56:28 <tathi> appears to
12:56:38 <cyberlok> do you still get the contents?
12:56:51 <cyberlok> It should be suppling the content type
12:56:53 <cyberlok> hmm
12:56:58 <cyberlok> let me try something
12:56:59 <cyberlok> one sec
12:57:08 <tathi> I get a whole list of 127.0.0.1s followed by domain names
12:57:18 <tathi> starting with ad.dk.doubleclick.net
12:57:29 <tathi> ending with zac.netgravity.com
12:58:27 <cyberlok> http://serverdisk.servehttp.com/hosts.txt
12:58:29 <cyberlok> try that
12:58:36 <cyberlok> see if you get the same error
13:00:44 <tathi> ok, that works with no error
13:01:06 <cyberlok> alright I see error now
13:01:16 <cyberlok> I need to throw in some kind of filetype check 
13:01:35 <cyberlok> otherwise dillo will freak 
13:01:51 <tathi> what's the switch that gets wget to show you the headers?
13:02:06 <cyberlok> I actually dont remmember
13:03:09 <tathi> nm, found it
13:03:09 <cyberlok> http://serverdisk.servehttp.com/httpd.asm is the httpd I am using
13:03:18 <cyberlok> I think the headers are hardcoded into it
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13:03:22 <Chef_> Hiya
13:03:23 <cyberlok> which is the problem 
13:04:13 <tathi> ah, you're not sending _any_ headers for /hosts
13:06:30 <cyberlok> well I can default it I think
13:06:43 <cyberlok> for now at least
13:06:50 <cyberlok> but it would assume txt
13:06:57 <cyberlok> or binary or whatever I tell it
13:07:10 <tathi> I'd think text/html would be the best...
13:07:57 <cyberlok> yeah I will jam that in there
13:08:05 <cyberlok> np will be in the next release I guess
13:08:46 <onetom> cyberlok: i have dillo 0.6.4
13:09:02 <onetom> hello chef
13:09:49 <cyberlok> good thing to note though that dillo freaks out at files sent to it with no content header
13:10:22 <tathi> cyberlok: so does your webserver send any headers at all? Or do you just have to put them in the file you're serving?
13:10:29 <cyberlok> god knows this thing has grown from 617 bytes to 1096 bytes fitting in cgi support and fixes
13:10:33 <tathi> heh
13:10:37 <cyberlok> oh 
13:10:48 <cyberlok> it sends the header according to the extension
13:10:57 <cyberlok> I thought I had one in there for NO extension 
13:11:01 <cyberlok> but I guess not
13:11:34 <cyberlok> I was pleased to get wget working 
13:12:11 <tathi> you should maybe make the "HTTP/1.0 200 OK" response not conditional on the type
13:12:15 <tathi> yeah
13:12:41 <tathi> I discovered yesterday I didn't have wget on one of my computers. Can't imagine how that happened.
13:13:08 <cyberlok> http://serverdisk.servehttp.com/stats2.txt 
13:13:14 <cyberlok> check that out man :)
13:14:00 <cyberlok> it breats apache because it is so small 
13:14:20 <cyberlok> and soon I hope to have dynamic content ability using CGI forth ;) 
13:14:39 <cyberlok> forthnuke anyone :)
13:14:54 <tathi> :-)
13:15:13 <cyberlok> on a floppy .. dont forget that part 
13:15:47 <cyberlok> I did not know 0.3 of serverdisk was going to take so long 
13:15:57 <cyberlok> it has been going for to long now for even me 
13:16:05 <cyberlok> I soo want to get this done and released 
13:19:36 <tathi> how long?
13:21:11 <cyberlok> been like 4 days
13:21:28 <cyberlok> I usually when I am making distros release every 2 days
13:21:34 <tathi> ah
13:21:44 <cyberlok> until it hits around 0.5 
13:22:02 <cyberlok> but the unique nature of this distro is making it complex 
13:22:14 <cyberlok> as I want to leave the actual control up to the end user
13:22:26 <cyberlok> and not the developer like so many diskette distros
13:23:01 <cyberlok> with my distro you actually make your disk 
13:26:14 <tathi> ah, didn't realize this was part of a bigger project
13:27:47 <cyberlok> nothing will bring out forth like practical application 
13:28:11 <cyberlok> and what better to show off size issues then a diskette distro running 4th 
13:28:55 <tathi> yeah
13:28:57 <tathi> very nice
13:29:01 <cyberlok> http://serverdisk.sf.net 
13:30:28 <cyberlok> hopefully there will also be serverCD and serverFlash
13:32:49 <cyberlok> crap yeah I need to release cuz my downloads have come down
13:42:43 <cyberlok> does anyone remmember what ls command I would do to lost all files in a ls -l order but not with the time or permissions just the file itself 
13:42:47 <cyberlok> files I should say
13:44:50 <tathi> ls -1 (single column)?
13:45:26 <cyberlok> thanks :)
13:47:05 <cyberlok> there are a bunch of files I have to let the user select if they want it installed or not
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14:16:04 <cyberlok> 1159168 total bytes for uclibc... hmmm this is small... interesting
14:17:05 <I440r> 1159168  <-- fucking HUGE!!!!!!
14:25:36 <tathi> I440r: /usr/lib/libc.a = 24,697,924 bytes :-)
14:25:44 <tathi> :(
14:26:54 <I440r> lol
14:27:07 <I440r> yea and 99.99999999999999999% is almost never used
14:27:32 <tathi> I'd imagine
14:28:16 <Herkamire> compatibility  comes at quite a price :)
14:28:36 <I440r> to high a price
14:29:43 <tathi> most of the std C functions I use are just wrappers around the syscalls anyway
14:29:51 <I440r> correct
14:30:11 <I440r> they serve only to add BLOAT
14:30:27 <I440r> and inject a middle man into a simple syscall interface
14:30:44 <tathi> dunno why they don't juts make gcc know about how syscalls work, and leave all that stuff out...
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14:31:10 <I440r_> "here mommy, can you ask teh kernel to open a file for me? im too much of a lamer to do it myself"
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14:35:16 <Herkamire> lot's of people want to be able to write code that can read/write files on any kernel or ever OS.
14:36:14 <Herkamire> I'm glad I can write twinky little programs in C and they should work on BSD
14:37:05 <tathi> yeah, I'm just saying that a bunch of the basic stuff is probably simple enough to abstract on most platforms, so why isn't it in gcc (where it could presumably be compiled out) rather than glibc?
14:37:31 <tathi> they're both huge, I can't imagine a bit more code one place rather than the other would hurt anything...
14:38:05 <tathi> but whatever...I'm certainly not volunteering to rewrite either :-P
14:39:01 <Herkamire> I agree
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21:50:05 <Speuler> 'morning
21:51:11 <Soap`> Afternoon
21:52:11 <Speuler> Soap`: you're valleysoap soap soap ?
21:53:43 <Soap`> That wooshing sound you hear is your comment going straight over my head.
21:53:54 <Speuler> Soap`: ok,you're not
21:55:17 <Speuler> your nick suggested you're be someone else
21:55:35 <Soap`> 'kay
21:55:39 <Speuler> but he wasn't a kiwi
21:55:51 <Soap`> Nobody's perfect.
22:10:28 <Speuler> luckily. 
22:10:41 <Speuler> otherwise nz would be a very crowded place indeed
22:27:29 <cyberlok> almost done with just a tarball of sources I use to build serverdisk
22:27:42 <cyberlok> so people can really play with it and make what they want
22:28:12 <Soap`> serverdisk?
22:29:13 <cyberlok> serverdisk.sf.net
22:29:39 <cyberlok> its a 900k server right now
22:30:07 <cyberlok> including the frugal 4th engine
22:30:52 <cyberlok> there are a lot of new stuff being added to 0.3 that it should almost be 0.5 since the fixes and features are compounding
22:31:17 <Soap`> Coo'
22:31:45 <cyberlok> a demo server is this one 
22:31:51 <cyberlok> http://serverdisk.servehttp.com 
22:32:09 <cyberlok> it also includes a irc server now (not included in tarball it will be in 0.3 though) 
22:32:27 <cyberlok> and a java applet irc program to use on the website
22:32:29 <Speuler>  browser nicht gestartet
22:33:05 <cyberlok> whats that?
22:33:10 <Speuler> oh shit
22:33:11 <cyberlok> sorry I dont understand
22:33:27 <Speuler> i messed up my network :)
22:33:34 <cyberlok> ahh 
22:33:59 <Speuler> that came from a script which monitors a presentation software
22:34:43 <Speuler> i have no idea why its output made it to irc
22:36:45 <Soap`> Hmm. Your server disk includes pong? :D
22:37:27 <Fractal> NetTickTacToe (Server/Client edition) is coming out soon, written in frugal forth.
22:39:30 <cyberlok> yup 
22:39:31 <cyberlok> :)
22:39:46 <cyberlok> yes!!!
22:39:53 <cyberlok> tic tac toe net style
22:39:59 <Fractal> Heh. Ya.
22:40:22 <cyberlok>  soon I will uploading serverdisk-source-Oct102002.tar.bz2 to sourceforge
22:55:47 <cyberlok> https://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=62857
23:00:40 <cyberlok> http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/serverdisk/serverdisk-source-oct102002.tar.bz2?download
23:38:47 <Speuler> serverdisk = single floppy linux ?
23:45:13 <cyberlok> yup
23:46:25 <Speuler> forth just coming with it, or being used for anything ?
23:46:42 <cyberlok> right now just comming with it
23:46:45 <cyberlok> and a pong game
23:46:56 <cyberlok> soon as per fractal a net based tic tac toe game
23:47:10 <cyberlok> and hopefully I will be able to implement 4th CGI 
23:47:15 <Speuler> ah
23:47:22 <cyberlok> as a more practical application of 4th 
23:47:26 <Speuler> good plan
23:47:57 <cyberlok> like I tell people 
23:48:10 <cyberlok> Imagine a 4thnuke but REALLY small 
23:49:25 <cyberlok> like 40k including the 4th binary 
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23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/02.10.01