00:00:00 --- log: started forth/03.11.30
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06:53:04 <gilbertdeb> hi robert.
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08:06:18 <mur> terve gilbert
08:31:06 <gilbertdeb> terve mur
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09:26:26 <Speuler> 'morning
09:43:40 <mur> evening
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10:40:22 <Robert> Hi there
10:43:12 <Speuler> Lo the other way :)
10:43:34 <mur> L
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11:57:02 <arke> hey all
11:59:45 <mur> terve
12:00:23 <arke> terve mur
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14:01:08 <TheBlueWizard> hiya all
14:01:15 <arke> :)
14:01:17 --- mode: ChanServ set +o TheBlueWizard
14:02:09 <mur> terve
14:03:16 <TheBlueWizard> terve mur
14:05:34 <mur> mitä kuuluu?
14:06:04 <TheBlueWizard> hmm...nothing much (I forgot the Finnish for that one :)
14:06:25 <TheBlueWizard> ja sä?
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14:11:21 <TheBlueWizard> hiya I440r!!!
14:11:47 <I440r> tbw!
14:12:05 <I440r> btw i dont actually use debian any more i use gentoo. 
14:12:07 <TheBlueWizard> how's life?  mine's ok...nothing much happening
14:12:20 <I440r> nothing happens here ever :P
14:12:29 <TheBlueWizard> mmhmm...I remember you telling me that
14:12:49 <TheBlueWizard> do you have any email address?
14:13:06 <I440r> email addresses for that ?
14:13:47 <I440r> for what i mean
14:15:46 <mur> tbw, pitäisi mennä jo nukkumaan
14:15:47 <TheBlueWizard> I talked with my good friend last night, and I told him I know a guy who has extensive contracting experience and might give some contracting tip, as my friend is on a contract and is losing some money due to commuting
14:16:53 <I440r> he should be getting per-diam
14:16:54 <I440r> is he ?
14:16:58 <TheBlueWizard> so if it is ok with you, I can give him your email address, assuming I know which email address to use
14:17:07 <I440r> does he work more than 50 miles from home?
14:17:27 <I440r> it would be cheaper to get an apartment maybe
14:18:14 <TheBlueWizard> he didn't say anything about his cashflow structure, only that he isn't making much money due to expenditure required to work in another city (one hour drive)
14:19:35 <TheBlueWizard> that's why I don't know much about the contracting stuff and thought you would be a good advisor.  Or maybe wait til Sat nite at 5:30 EST and I can intro you to him on this IRC network
14:20:44 <mur> TheBlueWizard: suggest him a tent where he can live the weekdays ;)
14:20:47 <mur> easy to carry ;)
14:20:55 <TheBlueWizard> lol :)
14:22:57 <TheBlueWizard> mur: ok :)
14:23:14 <mur> jk
14:23:20 <mur> we have funny radio station here in helsinki
14:23:23 <mur> upkept by students
14:23:33 <mur> it has "friday cleaning radio"
14:23:44 <mur> and "bourgais radio"
14:23:58 <mur> the names are funny
14:24:05 <mur> i cant listen to it though :P
14:24:22 <TheBlueWizard> I assume you mean to say "run by students", rather than "upkept by students"
14:24:35 <mur> well it's only short perioid
14:24:44 <mur> it'd be nice to receive transcripts of the talks
14:24:57 <mur> the talk sounds spontanous though
14:25:17 <mur> in the "friday cleaning" they blamed how dirty the studio was and how it shoudl be cleaned
14:25:37 <TheBlueWizard> lol :)
14:26:04 <TheBlueWizard> they would have to talk in a flowery fashion ;)
14:26:12 <mur> they talked in turku dialect
14:26:23 <mur> instead
14:27:20 <TheBlueWizard> What does Turku dialect has to do with "cleaning" the radio?  Cultural joke?
14:27:35 <mur> turku has own dialect
14:27:51 <mur> it's 100000 people's city
14:28:00 <mur> they use a lot nasals
14:28:38 <TheBlueWizard> something like French accent? (a lot of nasalized vowels, for example)
14:28:41 <TheBlueWizard> ?
14:28:53 <mur> i dont know :P
14:29:29 <TheBlueWizard> hmm...I take it you never actually heard those Turku speech?
14:29:51 * TheBlueWizard finds this tidbit interesting
14:32:28 <mur> i've been in turku too
14:33:03 <TheBlueWizard> oh? ok...never mind my silly rambliung then :)
14:33:42 <mur> i'm thinking of game concept
14:34:43 <TheBlueWizard> hmm?
14:34:50 <TheBlueWizard> do tell...
14:35:32 <mur> it's like yet another mud
14:35:37 <mur> grahphical 
14:35:42 <mur> but it takes rooms from other games
14:35:58 <mur> and you can "publish" rooms e.g. create shops and then peopel may come there 
14:36:16 <TheBlueWizard> hmm...such MUDs probably have been developed already
14:36:33 <mur> and i made some automats (hole-in-wall machines) which can be either bank vending machines
14:36:39 <mur> (you can save and get money from them)
14:37:19 <mur> and unspecified machines which can be e.g. teleport traps, candy machines, mapping machines, chat clients etc
14:37:35 <mur> they wont change behaviour every time used
14:37:44 <TheBlueWizard> sounds like a fancy version of "dig a hole in dirt and bury the money in it" of yore :)
14:39:23 <mur> what's different in it woudl be the real time internet server
14:39:49 <mur> and the "published" rooms used by multiple dungeon players (maybe you may be teleported to someone's else's map)
14:40:11 <mur> and that it woudl pick up rooms from previous games (might include treasuries or traps)
14:40:20 <mur> and the machines :)
14:40:22 <TheBlueWizard> a kind of multiple world experiencing?
14:41:39 <mur> i was inspired by nethack and the fact that it takes parts from previous games (like someone's belongging might appear and their ghosts)
14:42:49 <TheBlueWizard> hmm...might be fun...a kind of continuing to play (assuming death is relatively unimportant)
14:45:36 <mur> i dind't think that way but it sounds better idea
14:45:51 <mur> very inspiring that death is unimportant line
14:45:54 <mur> thanks, gave lots of ideas :)
14:46:04 * TheBlueWizard blinks
14:46:12 <TheBlueWizard> me? I didn't say much...
14:46:48 <MysticOne> mur: interesting
14:47:11 <mur> the ideas come from few words
14:47:14 <mur> if they are correct
14:52:28 <mur> do you have any ideas what might appear in dungeons?
14:52:34 <mur> let your m ind fly!
14:52:44 <TheBlueWizard> hmm...monsters?
14:53:07 <mur> something fixed
14:53:54 <mur> like shops
14:53:57 <mur> or machines
14:54:09 <mur> i'm making library now
14:54:42 <TheBlueWizard> ah...hmm...
14:55:10 * TheBlueWizard isn't imaginative...sometimes
14:59:46 <Robert> Hi :)
14:59:59 <mur> hey Robert 
15:01:06 <TheBlueWizard> hiya Robert
15:02:29 <mur> i shoudl go sleep soon!! :/
15:04:56 <TheBlueWizard> ok hyvää yötää
15:04:58 <TheBlueWizard> :)
15:05:04 <mur> not yet
15:05:07 <mur> i shoudl :)
15:06:05 <TheBlueWizard> um...you keep spelling should as "shoudl"
15:07:42 <mur> yeah :/
15:08:30 <mur> ok hyvää yötä
15:10:00 <TheBlueWizard> yötä
15:17:16 * Robert is playing with his new QRP transciever. :)
15:17:24 <Robert> The most amazing thing of all is that it's working.
15:17:48 <Robert> I'll take a digital photo some day, just to show how unlikely it is that it's actually working.
15:18:03 <TheBlueWizard> hmm...wonderful
15:18:15 <I440r> qrp ?
15:18:50 <TheBlueWizard> kc5tja also has that radio
15:19:06 <Robert> Which one?
15:19:10 <Robert> I440r: qrp == low power
15:19:12 <TheBlueWizard> dunno what it is, as I'm clueless when it comes to radio :)
15:20:05 <TheBlueWizard> Robert: dunno...kc talked about it; if you have a local copy of #forth logs, you can grep thru them to find that
15:21:36 <Robert> 20:22 <@kc5tja> Small Wonder Labs started as a one-man QRP radio kit company.
15:22:05 <Robert> http://www.qrpp-i.com/rock-mite.htm
15:22:15 <Robert> I think that's what he's refering to.. at least that's one of their products.
15:22:30 <Robert> But it's surface-mounted
15:22:43 <Robert> You need technical skills for that stuff :P  I just have my clumsy hands and a cheap soldering iron.
15:25:36 <arke> hello Robert 
15:29:20 <TheBlueWizard> gotta go...bye all
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15:31:17 <Robert> Hi arke 
15:31:55 <arke> whats up?
15:33:07 <Robert> Building a radio. :)
15:37:45 <arke> heehee
15:37:54 <arke> much fun
15:37:58 <arke> :)
15:38:16 <arke> hows projectarbete going?
15:38:24 <arke> projektarbete*
15:38:29 <Robert> Haven't done anything.
15:38:49 <arke> heh
15:39:00 <Robert> But don't worry, I will... sooner or later. :)
15:42:19 <arke> :)
15:42:22 <arke> great.
15:42:41 <arke> if i had to do one, i would probably make a forth or my rkg
15:42:42 <arke> :)
15:43:03 <Robert> rkg?
15:43:58 <arke> console X
15:44:00 <arke> :)
15:44:13 <arke> imagine X11, but with a different API and for the console
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16:34:38 <tathi> grr...I hate C...
16:41:44 <tathi> ah well...I suppose I should be happy it's open source at all...
16:45:05 <chandler> if I take a dump and open source it, does that change its nature?
16:45:52 <tathi> :)
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20:14:54 <arke> WTF!?
20:15:00 <arke> kc5tja: youre not op! wtf!?
20:24:38 --- mode: ChanServ set +o kc5tja
20:24:45 <kc5tja> There.  :)
20:47:40 <arke> :)
20:47:41 <arke> soooo
20:47:44 <arke> whats up?
20:47:57 <arke> dammit, i have a chem test tomorrow about something i know nothing about :(
20:50:48 * arke thinks
20:50:52 <arke> ive got it 5th period
20:50:58 <arke> so i might as well learn it during 1-4th
21:04:15 <kc5tja> Nothing much.
21:04:27 <kc5tja> I wanted to do some code hacking tonight, but I guess that isn't going to happen tonight.
21:16:52 <arke> aww :)
21:17:10 <arke> can i be op!?
21:17:12 <arke> :)
21:17:16 <arke> (no not really)
21:17:34 <arke> ack, i dont get this chemistry crap
21:17:45 <arke> "standard enthalpy of formation: aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaack
21:26:47 * kc5tja sighs
21:27:42 <arke> gimme
21:27:44 <arke> a
21:27:47 <arke> ok
21:27:49 <arke> wait
21:27:59 <arke> gimme an example of something that just cannot be done with typing
21:44:54 <kc5tja> Typing?
21:44:56 <kc5tja> What do you mean?
21:45:25 <kc5tja> OK: What kind of typing are you referring to?  I need to know the type of ``type'' you are talking about.  >:)
21:48:02 <arke> like
21:48:07 <arke> chars and ints and structs
21:48:10 <arke> type safety 
21:48:12 <arke> in programming
21:48:14 <kc5tja> If you're referring to data typing in programming languages, there are two primary applications for it: compiler optimization (knowing the data type of a parameter can help optimize stacking parameters or in allocating registers, for example), and in error detection before the software is actually run (thus pointing out a known error, down to individual source line, without having to weed everything out with a debugger)
21:48:42 <kc5tja> Mostly, it was introduced to help in error detection.
21:49:16 <kc5tja> I mean, it makes perfect sense: you really don't want to pass a soda glass to a function that accepts only CD-ROMs.  Both are 'objects,' but yet, they're very, very different.
21:49:33 <arke> k
21:50:24 <kc5tja> Optimization is fairly recent (relatively speaking).  The fact that type information is readily known and available makes for easier implementation of compiler optimizations.
21:50:50 <kc5tja> However, as you might expect, recent Lisp and Scheme compilers, and even Forth compilers, can optimize nearly as well as a C compiler can.
21:51:40 <kc5tja> They just take longer to do it, are more complicated, and use really esoteric algorithms to deduce the right data flow (if it guesses wrong, the code'll still work, it'll just be slower than expected instead of faster).
21:51:53 <kc5tja> But in most cases, as experience shows, it actually works good.
21:52:24 <kc5tja> Look, for example, at ML -- this is a language that uses explicit typing very rarely in its software.  Yet, it has a very strict type checking requirement -- it's a very statically type-checked language.
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21:52:50 <kc5tja> The compiler is sophisticated enough to examine code passed to it, and "reverse engineer" the code to determine types from context.
21:53:03 <kc5tja> This is called "type inferencing."
21:53:05 <kc5tja> re Robert_
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21:54:23 <arke> ok
21:54:42 <arke> gimme an example of something that cannot be done (or not as good) with typing :)
21:54:49 <arke> ML has its niceties, you're right there :)
21:55:05 <kc5tja> Run-time polymorphism.
21:55:56 <arke> :)
21:56:00 <kc5tja> The most you can do with static typing in a dynamic run-time environment is constrain the range of acceptable types to some kind of interface.  But once you are unable to narrow it down any further, run-time function dispatch or related method must be used.
21:57:16 <kc5tja> Consequently, software written in static-typed languages tend to be relatively inflexible.  They either need additional software support to emulate the dynamic behavior of a more dynamic language, or they just can't be extended nearly as well.
21:57:42 <kc5tja> Consider CORBA, versus NSProxy's built-in remoting facilities in Objective-C under NeXTStep or MacOS X.
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21:58:12 <kc5tja> The former is strictly typed, and relatively inflexible.  Lots of code and time (relatively speaking) are required to dispatch methods of remote objects.
21:58:51 <kc5tja> NSProxy, and NSObject, both work together to do the same thing, but in a small library that covers all compatible objects.  No IDL, no ORBs, etc.  Just raw functionality.
21:59:21 <arke> thats why i like C
21:59:26 <arke> and ultimately objc
21:59:45 <kc5tja> C is very statically typed.  It's not type checked very well, but it is very statically typed.
21:59:57 <arke> write(sockfd, some_struct, sizeof(some_struct));
21:59:58 <arke> :)
22:00:08 <arke> thats the kind of thing you can do only with C :)
22:00:16 <kc5tja> ummm....no, not really.
22:00:16 <kc5tja> :)
22:00:20 <arke> ..
22:00:23 <arke> and asm
22:00:28 <kc5tja> Why is that a C-only type of thing?
22:00:57 <kc5tja> Pascal has similar constructs, as does Oberon, Python, Perl, ...etc...
22:01:03 <kc5tja> Even Lisp.
22:02:48 <arke> :)
22:02:49 <arke> night
22:03:05 <kc5tja> Going to bed so soon? :)
22:03:13 * kc5tja has to go too shortly; have work in the morning.
22:12:52 --- quit: njd (Remote closed the connection)
22:22:06 <kc5tja> OK, I'm off to bed.
22:22:14 --- quit: kc5tja ("THX QSO ES 73 DE KC5TJA/6 CL ES QRT AR SK")
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22:29:58 <I440r> forth now runs in fbsd - nasm ppl musta fixed their brandelfing crap
22:30:21 <I440r> you can brandelf -f 3 kernel.com to get it to run now
22:30:33 <I440r> that didnt work last time i tried it
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23:04:43 <JAPeters> sLEEPY?
23:38:03 * Robert_ yawns.
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23:38:09 --- nick: Robert_ -> Robert
23:38:23 <Robert> Hey, that's cool.
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/03.11.30