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04:46:33 <qFox> hmmm i dont get it. i'm trying to free several words i've defined earlier, and for some reason FREE is returning -1 and 1's on the stack....
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09:15:54 <warpzero> huh?
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12:03:53 * rO| greets
12:04:52 <Robert> Hi rO| 
12:05:49 <rO|> Salute Robert!
12:06:18 <rO|> actually somebody using cmeme?
12:10:57 <Robert> Using what?
12:12:39 <rO|> nick cmeme in #forth aka http://meme.b9.com/
12:14:10 <Robert> Ah, the bot? Not I
12:14:23 <I440r> cmeme is a bot ?
12:14:29 <rO|> y
12:16:27 <qFox> how many times is this channel logged
12:16:30 <synova> too many channel logging bots :P
12:16:37 <qFox> there are only 24 users in this channel
12:16:38 <synova> don't we have enough surveillance?
12:16:43 <qFox> how many actual ppl does that make? :p
12:17:09 <qFox> 1 chanserv, 2 loggers at least
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12:19:14 <I440r> lol
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12:21:06 <rO|> re qFox
12:22:31 <I440r> wb
12:22:38 <qFox> windows memmory management.... sux
12:22:38 <qFox> :p
12:22:42 <I440r> ill have to finish MY bot and put it in here
12:22:50 <I440r> windows has management ?
12:22:57 <I440r> i dint think windows managed anything
12:24:23 <qFox> well... play a game and before you know it you have 1gig virtual mem
12:24:25 <qFox> hehe
12:24:43 <synova> that's not management, that's water retention
12:24:50 <qFox> oh is that what it is
12:25:00 <qFox> well, reboot seems to work
12:25:49 <synova> it seems that is all you can do
12:26:22 <synova> I'm wondering when the manufacturers will take away my ability to reboot or turn off my computer at will
12:26:33 <synova> seems like that is the next logical step
12:27:40 <I440r> microsoft deserves complete control of your box :)
12:27:51 <qFox> it already has...
12:28:05 <I440r> or.. for running windows YOU deserve giving up complete control to microsfot :/
12:28:37 <synova> well, I run Apple junk
12:28:44 <I440r> i run linux :)
12:28:48 <synova> but, I'm still not particularly happy
12:28:53 <I440r> and windows when i gotta
12:29:31 <synova> understandable.
12:29:33 <qFox> oh i use windows, but lately games are creating a hellish large swapfile when playing
12:29:40 <qFox> even with 512 rma
12:29:41 <qFox> ram
12:29:51 <synova> I just got tired of "tinkering" with stuff. That's why I stopped running Linux.
12:30:02 <synova> I guess I got excessively impatient.
12:30:20 <qFox> i have no real reason to start getting involved in linux myself
12:30:34 <I440r> use gentoo and you dont HAVE to tinker very often
12:30:40 <I440r> but i like tinkering :)
12:31:10 <synova> well, I am very glad that Linux (and FreeBSD, NetBSD, etc.) exist.
12:31:37 <synova> but, I can't say I'm thrilled with dealing with the baggage of a thirty-year old OS
12:32:02 <qFox> you're also working with about the same age in hardware
12:32:12 <synova> I hate commercial stuff, but that's all that is left. :P
12:32:36 <synova> qFox: yup. I try to minimize where I can, though.
12:32:37 <rO|> I440r: wot? gentoo install is already tinkering.. , ms only sometimes but probably more often lol
12:32:39 <I440r> unix is far superior to anything else 
12:32:50 <qFox> rO|?
12:32:58 <I440r> rO|, you CAN do a stage 3 install :P
12:33:19 <rO|> you can, yes
12:33:25 <I440r> but configuring gentoo is way easier than any other distro ive used because its so well documented what you have to do
12:33:29 <qFox> i'm quite good at optimizing windows. at least in windows i know where to optimize what for what purpose
12:33:37 <rO|> but only if you can ;-)
12:33:39 <qFox> in linux i wouldnt have a clue
12:33:57 <slava> how do you optimize windows?
12:34:06 <I440r> qFox, and your unoptimized linux will only be 284652983748 times faster than your optimized windows on the same box :P
12:34:08 <qFox> minimize graphical funnystuff, etc
12:34:24 <qFox> I440r> i wont know the difference really
12:34:32 <qFox> only be annoyed for missing my apps
12:34:34 <synova> qFox: I think that is an illusion.
12:34:39 <qFox> plus not being able to play MOST of the games
12:34:56 <qFox> lets see, i'd have to give up or emulate mirc
12:35:13 <rO|> I440r: faster? skipping X, positive
12:35:17 <qFox> ultraedit, oh sure there probably is a nice editor (many..) for linux, but i like ue
12:35:18 <synova> I'd prefer a native Forth any day over Unix.
12:35:30 <synova> I'd just miss the network connectivity.
12:35:44 <qFox> and i guess i can adapt to a different browser
12:35:46 <synova> hopefully, someone will pan that out soon.
12:35:51 <qFox> but what pro's would i get from linux?
12:35:54 <qFox> tell me that
12:36:04 <qFox> speed is not an issue.
12:36:06 <synova> Linux is licensed under the GPL
12:36:13 <synova> I think that is a pretty big deal.
12:36:16 <qFox> and i care why?
12:36:20 <qFox> seriously
12:36:29 <qFox> i use an os because i use it.
12:36:35 <synova> because you have the source, its free to maintain and upgrade with buying new computers every two months
12:36:36 <qFox> not because of its licence
12:36:40 <synova> minimal backdoors
12:36:49 * rO| likes *nix a lot, just as he dislikes it's X server arch
12:37:03 <synova> with = without
12:37:22 <qFox> i am fully patched, on a network. i'm not afraid of backdoors. i use my windows decent, hence no virii and hardly any spyware gets on it
12:37:22 <synova> and most of the software for it is the same way
12:37:27 <synova> you need a new copy of Mozilla
12:37:28 <synova> get it
12:37:32 <qFox> updates are installed automaticly
12:37:35 <qFox> what else?
12:37:38 <synova> and don't worry that you won't meet the requirements each time.
12:37:51 <synova> Windows IS spyware. :P
12:38:01 <synova> the media player debacle should show you that
12:38:06 <qFox> i dont use mp9
12:38:17 <qFox> i use media player classic, same thing, completely stripped
12:38:17 <synova> well, even so, do you think they would stop there?
12:38:20 <qFox> much much better
12:38:33 <rO|> X server, is there any alternative to this ... ehm slow thing?
12:38:48 <qFox> seriously, i see no pro in switching to linux
12:39:00 <synova> qFox: well, I can't convince you then.
12:39:04 <qFox> except perhaps learning to use it, hence upgrading my knowledge... but screw that
12:39:10 <synova> if you're happy with Windows, you're luckier than most.
12:39:19 <rO|> is cocoa built on X?
12:39:20 <qFox> most just dont know how to use it then.
12:39:21 <synova> I agree with the knowledge thing.
12:39:33 <synova> its absolutely ADD-inducing, imho.
12:39:43 <synova> r0: no.
12:39:50 <synova> it's an entirely separate framework
12:39:56 <rO|> oh? interesting..
12:40:01 <rO|> :-)
12:40:18 <qFox> i'm sorry. but if you strip windows down to a normal operating system, rather then a flying color circus. you patch up, and use it with care (not surf to porn or crack sites, not open "unknown" binaries, basicly dont act stupid), you should be ok
12:40:19 <Callidus> Cocoa is the OpenStep framework made to work with Apple's new system.
12:40:29 <Callidus> (And updated considerably.)
12:40:46 <synova> qFox: well, I don't worry about viruses so much
12:40:50 <slava> qFox, why should surfing web sites affect the OS?
12:40:54 <synova> getting good software and paying attention, like you say, is often enough
12:40:55 <qFox> i have no virusscanner installed, for like ages
12:41:10 <synova> but, I don't like feeling like the OS has a mind of its own
12:41:13 <qFox> slava> exploits are often found on such websites, spyware, virii, etc
12:41:14 <slava> parsing HTML should never install arbitrary programs on my computer, like it does with IE
12:41:27 <synova> IE and Outlook are horrid
12:41:28 <slava> qFox, its the fault of the OS, no blame lies with those that write cracks IMHO
12:41:32 <synova> I can't believe people continue to use them
12:41:34 <qFox> ehm
12:41:35 * rO| uses *nix for the serverside, ms for the clients
12:41:38 <qFox> i dont care who you blame
12:41:52 <qFox> you should mess with those sites either way ;)
12:42:29 <synova> Personally, if I had to go back to Unix, I'd run NetBSD
12:42:32 <qFox> its agonising to see ppl with virusscanners claiming they are safe now, while complaining about performance
12:42:35 <rO|> mostly. few times otherway round
12:42:38 <synova> less clutter
12:42:44 <synova> and code organization seems better
12:43:07 <synova> despite the smaller userbase, I feel like there is less of an opportunity for people to miss important problems
12:43:20 <qFox> ahwell, i say, if you have decent hardware, a "optimized" windows, and dont act stupid, windows will work fine.
12:43:30 <synova> a somewhat "sane" source tree structure goes a long way
12:43:54 <wossname> i've run 98 for a year without a virus scanner, no problems
12:44:03 <synova> qFox: frankly, not giving an ounce of my time to struggle with a monopoly is orth not using windows (for me)
12:44:10 <synova> I'm ashamed as it is that I run Apple hardware
12:44:34 <synova> (I admit to liking my applications, though.)
12:44:35 <qFox> i personally dont care about the monopoly struggle. 
12:44:45 <synova> qFox: that's your choice.
12:44:50 <synova> I am glad.
12:44:58 <qFox> i mean, i have an oppinion, but you wont ever see me ... doing whatever against it
12:44:59 <synova> Unfortunately, it bothers me a lot.
12:45:12 <qFox> ahwell lets not get into this..
12:45:21 <synova> ok
12:45:50 <qFox> wont be long before we will all switch to a forth os. ;)
12:46:12 <synova> qFox: if I had a PC that ran colorForth, I'd already be there. :P
12:46:23 <qFox> i actually couldnt get it working either :(
12:46:36 <synova> a dreadfully small public domain native Forth OS. *drool*
12:46:48 <synova> sorry to hear that.
12:46:51 <qFox> there will be one for the kestrel.
12:47:34 <synova> colorForth?
12:47:46 <qFox> no i think one from scratch
12:47:46 <slava> i added a neat persitence engine to my language
12:47:50 <qFox> designed for the kestrel
12:47:54 <slava> it just saves variable values transparently
12:48:02 <synova> ok
12:48:02 <slava> and some variables can contain 'tables', each table holding more variables
12:48:06 <slava> so its like a hierarchical database
12:48:08 <synova> I have to say pre-parsed source is sexy
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12:48:19 <synova> I wish my ANS Forth(alikes) had that
12:48:22 <rO|> re herk
12:48:40 <slava> synova, i will have source in the db, but not pre-parsed
12:48:54 <slava> synova, rather the DB holds 'unparsed' values in string form, and they are parsed when records are loaded
12:48:57 <slava> hi Herkamire
12:49:00 <synova> more along the lines of Jeff Fox's 'aha'?
12:49:14 <slava> i have no idea
12:49:16 <synova> or something different?
12:49:29 <rO|> slava: link?
12:49:36 <synova> no problem
12:50:20 <slava> rO|, not up yet
12:50:34 <slava> it resembles userland frontier if you know what that is
12:51:08 <rO|> i tried once.. ;-
12:51:08 <synova> Mops looks like its readying for a beta release. cool.
12:56:10 <synova> slava: well, I haven't used it, but yes, I think I have an idea what you mean
13:00:06 <slava> synova, source code, variables, docs, etc are all stored in a database
13:04:34 <synova> neat.
13:04:51 <synova> is there any place I can view some of the documentation?
13:10:22 <Herkamire> hi rO| slava :)
13:11:10 <rO|> Herkamire: morning, sire ;-)
13:13:14 <Herkamire> slava: what has source, variables etc in a database?
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13:26:46 <slava> Herkamire, factor
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13:36:57 <Herkamire> slava: coool
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14:46:02 <qFox> what was the way to extend a number to a certain number of digits?
14:46:12 <qFox> when printing
14:46:39 <qFox> like BINARY 1001010 , i want it to print 00001001010
14:46:47 <I440r_> <# # # # # .... #>
14:46:58 <I440r_> but you have to convert it to a double first
14:47:06 <I440r_> usually by zero extending it...
14:47:18 <I440r_> you can do that by just putting a 0 on the stack
14:47:34 <I440r_> 0 <# # # # #> 
14:47:44 <I440r_> will make it a 3 digit number with leading 0's
14:48:20 <qFox> hm
14:48:22 <qFox> not really :\
14:49:01 <qFox> 1  ok.
14:49:01 <qFox> 0  ok..
14:49:01 <qFox> <# # # # #>  ok..
14:49:01 <qFox> . 11  ok.
14:49:01 <qFox> . 100101100000000100101  ok
14:53:10 <qFox> hm, .R will do for now i guess
14:53:22 <qFox> i'll just think those 0's there :p
14:54:24 <I440r_> no lol
14:54:38 <I440r_> <# # #> etc convert the number to a STRING lol
14:54:43 <I440r_> look at the definition for .
14:55:06 <qFox> . doesnt convert at all
14:55:14 <qFox> and i dont understand numeric conversions at all
14:55:24 <qFox> nor can i find any decent description of it
14:55:31 <I440r_> ill explain it to you
14:55:34 <qFox> (i searched for it a while back)
14:56:01 <I440r_> ok first of all
14:56:15 <I440r_> 123 0 <# # # # # #> type space
14:56:18 <I440r_> see what that gives you
14:56:31 <qFox> 0123
14:56:35 <qFox> hm
14:56:41 <I440r_> now inject another # in there
14:57:06 <I440r_> btw which forth are you using :P
14:57:10 <qFox> win32forth
14:57:13 <qFox> :)\
14:57:29 <I440r_> lol
14:57:32 <I440r_> boot to linux :P
14:57:39 <qFox> problem.
14:57:40 <qFox> :p
14:57:59 <qFox> i'd be quite surprised if it would
15:00:15 <qFox> ok, how would i add a dot between 2 digits?
15:00:30 <qFox> 100100.110001.100 etc
15:00:34 <I440r_> <# # # '.' hold # # # # # #>
15:00:37 <I440r_> however!
15:00:46 <I440r_> in that forth it would probably be
15:00:48 <I440r_> ascii . hold
15:00:54 <qFox> right
15:01:03 <qFox> can i just do 60?
15:01:09 <I440r_> because they like to use the MAXIMUM number of characters they can 
15:01:21 <qFox> i mean 46
15:01:24 <I440r_> they go for the verbogocity
15:01:37 <qFox> (no idea...)
15:01:39 <I440r_> you can do any ascii value followed by hold
15:01:43 <qFox> ok
15:02:01 <I440r_> 123 hold or $69 hold or whatever
15:02:17 <I440r_> bl hold will inject a space
15:02:22 <qFox> the $ is like a hex convert, isnt it :\
15:02:56 <qFox> allright, roxor
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15:06:58 <I440r_> yes
15:07:10 <I440r_> it works in isforth, dont know about win32
15:07:23 <I440r_> tho it should because TZ did it in fpc so...
15:07:54 <qFox> it works :)
15:07:58 <qFox> 00.000000.000000.000000.000000.000001
15:08:05 <I440r_> corse it does
15:08:07 <qFox> hehe
15:08:23 <qFox> after remembering its still rpn, it worked
15:08:24 <qFox> hehe
15:08:27 <qFox> well, properly
15:09:12 <qFox> with that, my outer assembler is done i think
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16:03:37 <SDO> maybe some good times gone bad memories for some here... http://sdo.dyndns.org:8080/misc/WiredMagazineCovers/1994-95/index.html
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16:41:39 <warpzero> heya I440r_
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17:06:23 <qFox> uh
17:06:23 <qFox> .p
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17:30:46 --- nick: forthmeme -> LOOP-HOG
17:30:52 <LOOP-HOG> hi
17:33:14 <blockhead> hi
17:33:21 <LOOP-HOG> what's new?
17:33:31 <blockhead> not much  :)  you?
17:33:58 <LOOP-HOG> reading up on the xprize on the 'ol web
17:48:17 <LOOP-HOG> Honkin'!
17:48:34 <LOOP-HOG> Huge
17:48:42 <LOOP-HOG> Address Space
17:53:30 <blockhead> I take it you don't mean this xprise?:  http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/XPRIZE
17:55:28 <Sonarman> sounds like something from Apple
18:00:59 <LOOP-HOG> its not from apple
18:01:05 <LOOP-HOG> http://www.xprize.com
18:03:02 <blockhead> so it *is* that xprise
18:03:06 <LOOP-HOG> yes
18:03:31 <qFox> hm that space ship looks like a neat keychain-with-built-in-light
18:03:33 <qFox> :p
18:03:43 <qFox> or a tamagochi, take your pick
18:04:06 <LOOP-HOG> which one?, the spaceship1?
18:04:23 <qFox> the red one on the frontpage
18:04:31 <qFox> davinci, says the image alt
18:04:52 <qFox> or wildfire, says the picture (confused!)
18:04:58 <LOOP-HOG> the page loads a different ship everything you go there
18:05:09 <qFox> oh, so it does
18:05:12 <LOOP-HOG> da vinci project is the name of the company
18:05:13 <qFox> well
18:05:19 <qFox> it said davinci, and the name was wild fire
18:05:21 <qFox> red one
18:05:26 <qFox> looks like tamagochi :p
18:05:46 <LOOP-HOG> that's one of two balloon launched spaceships
18:07:38 <LOOP-HOG> so, question for you guys, who has the BALLZ to go up in one of those things?
18:07:45 <LOOP-HOG> remember this isn't rocket guy
18:07:55 <qFox> heck no.
18:08:19 <qFox> if i'm that desperate to test 0grav, i can do that on earth somewhere
18:08:31 <qFox> other then that, space is a really big boring area imo
18:08:31 <LOOP-HOG> like on the vomit comet?
18:09:16 <qFox> then again... if i get a pc and a phat internet connection... for a not too long period... why not :p
18:09:48 <qFox> "weblog from outer space"
18:09:55 <LOOP-HOG> we could talk about the kestrel
18:11:36 <LOOP-HOG> well, one thing to say about the In-N-Out Burger is that they are simple and true to form
18:12:00 <LOOP-HOG> the arn't copping out like McDonalds and serving a vegiburger and bottled water 
18:13:42 <qFox> mcdonalds > burgerking. we dont have other major burger chains in holland
18:13:51 <qFox> that i know of..
18:14:06 <LOOP-HOG> i was mentioning it because that is where Falvio used to work
18:14:20 <LOOP-HOG> i must admit to being a tofu-eater.  can one purchase tofu in Holland?
18:15:10 <qFox> there's a chinese on each corner
18:15:21 * qFox associates tofu with chinese food..
18:16:38 <qFox> tofu are those not very hard straw like healthy things right?
18:16:44 <qFox> :)
18:17:09 <LOOP-HOG> i can take a 2 minute walk and go into a natural food store and buy a block of plain tofu for under a $1.40
18:17:20 <qFox> block? ok i guess not..
18:17:24 <LOOP-HOG> tofu is a cake made out of bean curd
18:17:34 <qFox> haha, then i dont have a clue
18:17:40 <qFox> we have nature stores
18:17:54 <qFox> those stores that only sell ... nature stuff (d'oh)
18:18:07 <qFox> actually note sure how else to explain them
18:18:14 <qFox> but its good for health freaks
18:18:21 <LOOP-HOG> ok
18:45:56 <qFox> ok anyone here who can explain me the addressing technique kc5tja had for this cpu? i mean with jumps
18:46:31 <qFox> i can only remember that he xor's the remains of the instruction latch, with P. but that seems flawed to me, so i must have remembered it incorrect
18:46:39 <qFox> and i cant figure out what it should be :\
18:46:40 <LOOP-HOG> each address references a 32bit chunck of memory, instead of a 4bit chunk of memory
18:46:44 <qFox> nonono
18:46:56 <qFox> when jumping to a certain address
18:46:58 <qFox> what happens..
18:47:58 <LOOP-HOG> wouldn't it just load that 32bit value and start executing the instructions inside of it?
18:48:12 <LOOP-HOG> maybe i'm not as far ahead of you and don't understand the quesiton
18:48:19 <qFox> like with jump to 0, nothing happens, because the instruction latch is 0, and then xor'ed with the P (adr of next instruction word)
18:48:56 <qFox> nah, thats not how it was, thats how i thought it to be at first as well :)
18:49:15 <qFox> jump 0 does nothing, that much i can tell you
18:49:36 <LOOP-HOG> thats where the cpu starts at on reset/poweron right?
18:49:38 <qFox> well nothing, it continues with the next instruction word
18:49:45 <qFox> yes
18:49:54 <qFox> when the cpu starts everything is cleared
18:50:05 <qFox> so the I is 0, which basicly means "jump 0"
18:50:25 <qFox> but i forgot the address hashing technique :(
18:50:30 <qFox> anyone?
18:50:47 <LOOP-HOG> sorry
18:54:14 <qFox> i guess i'll have to wait :\
18:56:24 <qFox> i believe its the only element missing to my emulator
18:56:49 <LOOP-HOG> you are writing an emulator for his cpu?
18:56:49 <qFox> but it results in a unusable jmp jz jp and call :\
18:56:56 <qFox> ye
18:59:21 <LOOP-HOG> do you have a plan to use this emulator?
19:05:20 <qFox> yes to test software i write for the cpu
19:05:44 <qFox> in an emulator i have better debug control then on the actual cpu, especially in the bare beginning
19:06:25 <qFox> later on, when the basic support has been built, a small debugger can be built on the kestrel itself, but still debugging would be easier from this environment, then the actual cpu itself
19:06:29 <qFox> imo..
19:09:07 <LOOP-HOG> ok
19:27:17 <LOOP-HOG> see you later
19:27:17 --- quit: LOOP-HOG ()
19:43:07 --- join: kc5tja (~kc5tja@66-74-218-202.san.rr.com) joined #forth
19:43:13 --- mode: ChanServ set +o kc5tja
19:47:14 --- quit: qFox (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
19:47:17 --- join: qF0x (C00K13S@cp12172-a.roose1.nb.home.nl) joined #forth
19:47:31 <qF0x> eep. did that get thru at all?
19:48:06 <kc5tja> Apparently not.
19:48:11 <qF0x> [04:46:35] <qFox> kc5tja> how'd the jump work again? :)
19:48:11 <qF0x> [04:46:48] <qFox> i have this xor method in mind which cant be correct
19:48:35 <kc5tja> It is demonstrably correct -- it works just fine in my emulator.
19:48:55 <qF0x> well yeah i'm sure it works, i mean, i probably forgot a minor detail
19:49:01 <qF0x> as usual
19:49:33 <kc5tja> The JA opcode occupies bits 0..5 of the instruction register, leaving bits 6..31 to hold the effective address XOR mask.
19:49:33 <blockhead> wb qF0x, hey kc5tja
19:49:46 <kc5tja> This mask is applied to the instruction pointer to get the next instruction address.
19:49:55 <kc5tja> re blockhead 
19:50:08 * kc5tja is going to make a FAQ
19:50:20 <kc5tja> It seems like I'm asked how JA and other control flow words work on a daily basis.
19:50:22 <qF0x> hm, then i'm hitting a wall here... if you xor, wont the result not be the address you want to jump to?
19:50:31 <qF0x> hehe
19:50:38 <kc5tja> Very good, grasshopper.
19:50:44 <kc5tja> The bits in 6..31 are NOT the target address.
19:50:47 <qF0x> o_0
19:51:11 <kc5tja> It is the XOR mask which, when applied to the current value of the PC register, derives the new instruction address.
19:51:43 <kc5tja> Here is the abstract state machine model for JA, JZ, JP, CALL, and RFS:
19:52:00 <kc5tja>         inf: [] -> Nat
19:52:00 <kc5tja>         inf := positive infinity
19:52:00 <kc5tja>         IF Opcode IN { JA, JZ, JP, CALL, RFS } THEN
19:52:00 <kc5tja>           IF (
19:52:00 <kc5tja>             ( ( Slot < MaxSlots-1 ) AND ( Opcode # RFS ) ) OR
19:52:02 <kc5tja>             ( ( Slot < MaxSlots ) AND ( Opcode = RFS ) )
19:52:05 <kc5tja>           ) THEN
19:52:07 <kc5tja>             Instruction(slot) := Opcode
19:52:10 <kc5tja>             Opcode := None
19:52:12 <kc5tja>             BitRange( Mem( InstructionLocation ), inf, 6*(slot+1) ) :=
19:52:13 --- nick: qF0x -> qFox
19:52:15 <kc5tja>                 Operand XOR Location
19:52:18 <kc5tja>             SetOrigin( Location )
19:52:20 <kc5tja>           ELSE
19:52:22 <kc5tja>             SetOrigin( Location )
19:52:25 <kc5tja>           END
19:52:28 <kc5tja>         END
19:52:32 <kc5tja> inf: [] -> Nat just says that inf is a nullary function that returns a natural number, or some concept of it.
19:52:42 <kc5tja> I then declare explicitly that inf represents positive infinity.
19:52:58 <kc5tja> But for our purposes, inf is 31, since that's the highest numbered bit in the instruction register.
19:53:41 <Herkamire> qFox: you put the right mask into the JA instruction so that it does give you the address you want to branch to when you xor it with the PC
19:53:58 <qFox> right
19:54:15 <kc5tja> What this says is, if the opcode we're assembling is in the set { JA, JZ, JP, CALL, RFS }, then we set the value of the particular slot, and assign the remainder of the instruction word's bits to the effective address XOR'ed with the current PC value.
19:55:11 <kc5tja> (everything else is just a rigorous formalism, which I use to prove correctness about the algorithm.  You needn't worry about it at this level.)
19:55:29 <Herkamire> kc5tja: what language is that?
19:55:45 <kc5tja> Herkamire: My own notation for an abstract state machine.
19:56:00 <Herkamire> hehe :) that explains why I didn't recodnize it :)
19:56:08 <qFox> i've copied it in, i'll worry about how to implement it tomorrow. i was about to go to bed
19:56:09 <kc5tja> Herkamire: It's worked out so well for my purposes that I'm thinking of making an ASM interpreter language based on this syntax though.
19:56:13 <qFox> and am now. :)
19:56:14 <qFox> nite
19:56:23 <kc5tja> Herkamire: It's largely based on Oberon and Python though.
19:56:30 <blockhead> 'nn qFox
19:56:55 --- quit: qFox ("this is mirc's last attempt of communication...")
19:56:56 <kc5tja> Herkamire: The important thing to remember is that *ALL* instructions execute in parallel, every single one.
19:57:44 <kc5tja> So statements like Instruction(slot) := Opcode; Opcode := None looks like a race condition, but in reality it's not, since they both execute concurrently in an ASM, and state is updated on every "tick" of time.
19:58:31 <kc5tja> IF/THEN/(ELSE/)END statements are used to impose predication, and interestingly enough, are all that's necessary to impose looping constructions.
19:59:10 <Sonarman> what does SetOrigin() do?
19:59:20 <Herkamire> you lost me at the race condition
19:59:27 <kc5tja>         DEFINE SetOrigin( org )
19:59:27 <kc5tja>           InstructionLocation := org
19:59:27 <kc5tja>           Location := org + 1
19:59:27 <kc5tja>           Mem( org ) := 0
19:59:27 <kc5tja>           Slot := 0
19:59:30 <kc5tja>         END
19:59:50 <kc5tja> Herkamire: This would be a race condition:
19:59:56 <kc5tja> FOO := "A" ; FOO := "B"
20:00:17 <kc5tja> Because in the same time step, what value does FOO take on?  Certainly not A, as B is being assigned.  Likewise, certainly not B, since A is being assigned to it.
20:00:20 <kc5tja> That's a race condition.
20:00:48 <Herkamire> oh... I didn't know what race condition meant
20:01:05 <Herkamire> I thought it meant when two processes are waiting for eachother
20:01:07 <kc5tja> Only in the above example, we had one statement USING Opcode, while at the same time, Opcode was apparently being assigned to.  Thus, what value does the statement using Opcode get assigned?
20:01:21 <kc5tja> Herkamire: No, that's called "deadlock."
20:01:29 <kc5tja> Deadlock is a kind of race condition, but it's a very specific kind.
20:01:36 <Herkamire> I understand now
20:01:43 * kc5tja nods
20:01:56 <Herkamire> I was reading "dict race condition" while you were explaining it :)
20:02:09 <kc5tja> :P
20:02:41 <kc5tja> Abstract State Machines are interesting, because they have all the characteristics of a functional programming language, but yet affect state.
20:02:50 <kc5tja> So, consider the following construct:
20:03:02 <kc5tja>         IF NOT Opcode IN { JA, JZ, JP, CALL, RFS, None } THEN
20:03:02 <kc5tja>           IF Slot < MaxSlots THEN
20:03:02 <kc5tja>             Instruction( Slot ) := Opcode
20:03:02 <kc5tja>             Opcode := None
20:03:02 <kc5tja>             Slot := Slot + 1
20:03:05 <kc5tja>             IF Opcode == LIT THEN
20:03:07 <kc5tja>               Mem(Location) := Operand
20:03:10 <kc5tja>               Location := Location + 1
20:03:13 <kc5tja>             END
20:03:15 <kc5tja>           ELSE
20:03:18 <kc5tja>             SetOrigin( Location )
20:03:20 <kc5tja>           END
20:03:23 <kc5tja>         END
20:03:25 <kc5tja> (sorry for the floods, but it's important to have context)
20:03:48 <kc5tja> This is 100% equivalent, by the definition of an abstract state machine, to the following code:
20:03:55 <kc5tja>         IF NOT Opcode IN { JA, JZ, JP, CALL, RFS, None } THEN
20:03:55 <kc5tja>           IF Slot < MaxSlots THEN
20:03:55 <kc5tja>             Instruction( Slot ) := Opcode
20:03:55 <kc5tja>             Opcode := None
20:03:55 <kc5tja>             Slot := Slot + 1
20:03:57 <kc5tja>             IF Opcode == LIT THEN
20:04:00 <kc5tja>               Mem(Location) := Operand
20:04:02 <kc5tja>               Location := Location + 1
20:04:05 <kc5tja>             END
20:04:07 <kc5tja>           ELSE
20:04:10 <kc5tja>           InstructionLocation := org
20:04:12 <kc5tja>           Location := org + 1
20:04:15 <kc5tja>           Mem( org ) := 0
20:04:17 <kc5tja>           Slot := 0
20:04:20 <kc5tja>           END
20:04:23 <kc5tja>         END
20:04:25 <kc5tja> oops, got the indent wrong.  But you know what I mean.
20:04:58 <kc5tja> Note that the substitution is *literal*.  It's not like a more traditional programming language, where invoking a function is "kinda sorta" like a mathematical function, but one which can produce side effects.
20:05:36 <kc5tja> In a functional language, the function is the core of the language.  In an abstract state machine, the *PROCEDURE* is.  And like functional languages, procedures are "functional" in that they can be directly substituted.  For this reason, they're often referred to as substitutions or as macros.
20:05:57 <kc5tja> oops, I also forgot to replace 'org' with 'Location'.  :/
20:06:01 <kc5tja> But you get the idea.
20:06:04 <kc5tja> Does that make any sense?
20:06:10 <Herkamire> mostly
20:06:29 <kc5tja> Wanna see an interesting looping construct?  :D
20:06:36 <kc5tja> IF BusyWaiting THEN
20:06:43 <kc5tja>   timer := 0
20:06:43 <Herkamire> I'm working on this part: "IF/THEN/(ELSE/)END statements are used to impose predication, and interestingly enough, are all that's 
20:06:51 <kc5tja>   InLoop := TRUE
20:06:52 <Herkamire> necessary to impose looping constructions."
20:06:55 <kc5tja>   IF InLoop THEN
20:06:59 <kc5tja>     X := X + 1
20:07:08 <kc5tja>     IF X = 1000 THEN
20:07:13 <kc5tja>       InLoop := FALSE
20:07:20 <kc5tja>       BusyWaiting := FALSE
20:07:23 <kc5tja>     END
20:07:24 <kc5tja>   END
20:07:25 <kc5tja> END
20:07:54 <Herkamire> they "impose predication" means that everything that's before the IF happens before and everything after happens after right?
20:08:04 <kc5tja> Remember that ALL statements in an abstract state machine execute concurrently.  Some are predicated on certain conditions though.
20:08:17 <kc5tja> No.
20:08:22 <kc5tja> ALL statements execute CONCURRENTLY.
20:08:23 <kc5tja> Period.
20:08:35 --- join: Sonarman_ (~matt@adsl-64-169-93-42.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined #forth
20:08:38 <kc5tja> Any further discussion will not accurately explain how ASMs work.
20:09:01 --- quit: Sonarman (Nick collision from services.)
20:09:04 --- nick: Sonarman_ -> Sonarman
20:09:06 <kc5tja> BUT, the IF statement controls whether or not a statement is eligible for execution based on some condition that must be satisfied first.
20:10:07 <kc5tja> The above code is equivalent to this:
20:10:17 <kc5tja> IF BusyWaiting THEN timer := 0 END
20:10:27 <kc5tja> Whoops...
20:10:36 <kc5tja> I found a bug.  See, this is what ASMs are excellent for.
20:10:46 <kc5tja> let me start again.
20:10:50 <kc5tja> IF BusyWaiting THEN
20:10:55 <kc5tja>   timer := 0
20:10:59 <kc5tja>   inLoop := TRUE
20:11:12 <kc5tja> Gahh, same mistake.
20:11:13 <kc5tja> :/
20:11:17 <kc5tja> IF BusyWaiting THEN
20:11:24 <kc5tja>   IF NOT inLoop THEN
20:11:29 <kc5tja>     timer := 0
20:11:32 <kc5tja>     inLoop := TRUE
20:11:35 <kc5tja>   ELSE
20:11:41 <kc5tja>     timer := timer + 1
20:11:49 <kc5tja>     IF timer = 1000 THEN
20:11:55 <kc5tja>       inLoop := FALSE
20:12:03 <kc5tja>       BusyWaiting := FALSE
20:12:05 <kc5tja>     THEN
20:12:12 <kc5tja>   END
20:12:14 <kc5tja> END
20:12:23 <kc5tja> (sorry, that second THEN should be END -- my Forth is getting in the way.  :D)
20:12:34 <kc5tja> THAT is 100% equivalent to the following:
20:12:36 <Herkamire> :)
20:12:47 <kc5tja> IF BusyWaiting AND NOT inLoop THEN timer := 0 END
20:12:56 <kc5tja> IF BusyWaiting AND NOT inLoop THEN inLoop := TRUE END
20:13:02 <Herkamire> how do you implement something where there's tons of stuff executing concurrently?
20:13:09 <kc5tja> IF BusyWaiting AND inLoop THEN timer := timer + 1 END
20:13:29 <kc5tja> IF BusyWaiting AND inLoop AND timer = 1000 THEN inLoop := FALSE END
20:13:35 <Herkamire> right
20:13:38 <Herkamire> that makes sense
20:13:43 <kc5tja> IF BusyWaiting AND inLoop AND timer = 1000 THEN BusyWaiting := FALSE
20:14:19 <kc5tja> There are variations of the basic ASM concept called "multi-multi-agent ASMs," but I'm not sure how they differ from normal ASMs.
20:14:34 <kc5tja> In my system, I would just define each unique actor as a domain, each with its own unique name space.
20:14:34 <Herkamire> so basically, instead of specifying what order to check things in and do stuff, you just specify the conditions under which a certain bits of code run
20:14:47 <kc5tja> Accessing another actor's name space is done with standard dot-notation (e.g., A.B.C := D)
20:14:49 <Herkamire> and rely on the system to check for that condition regularly, and run your bits.
20:14:59 <kc5tja> Yes.
20:15:22 <kc5tja> The other thing to remember is that state updates occur on time transitions.
20:15:27 <kc5tja> E.g., after every timer tick.
20:15:45 <kc5tja> (Note: timer is a loose term here; there is no actual "timer" per se)
20:15:59 <Herkamire> ahh :) that answered my next question.
20:16:05 <kc5tja> If I were to implement an ASM interpreter in Forth, its outer loop would look like this:
20:16:24 <kc5tja> : ASM-Loop  BEGIN RunPredicates UpdateState Quit? UNTIL ;
20:16:36 <kc5tja> That's why constructs like:
20:16:37 <kc5tja> A := B
20:16:39 <kc5tja> B := A
20:16:44 <Herkamire> does a tick occur every time the state changes? or when all statements finish?
20:16:47 <kc5tja> make perfect sense (and behave as expected!) in ASMs.
20:17:00 <kc5tja> When all predicated statements finish.
20:17:28 <warpzero> oh hey kc5tja
20:17:48 <kc5tja> re warpzero 
20:17:52 <Herkamire> oh I get it. you do all the checks against the states (the IFs)
20:18:02 <Herkamire> then you run all the statements.
20:18:11 <kc5tja> But only if their checks are TRUE.  :)
20:18:25 <Herkamire> when statemens read state they get the state as it was at the begining of this tick
20:18:35 <kc5tja> Correct.
20:18:36 <kc5tja> :)
20:18:38 <Herkamire> any changes to state, don't actually effect the state until the end of the tick
20:18:46 <kc5tja> The game of Life in an ASM would be relatively trivial.
20:18:59 <Herkamire> right
20:19:03 <warpzero> I am trying to follow this conversation here... and failing horribly.
20:19:06 <kc5tja> There'd be no real reason to define a "before" and "after" map in an ASM-based Life simulation.
20:19:08 <Herkamire> I played with that on my dad's apple //c
20:19:39 <kc5tja> warpzero: I'm explaining what abstract state machines are, and how they operate.
20:19:42 <Herkamire> your ASM has to handle the before/after stuff
20:19:51 <kc5tja> warpzero: They're used as a formal method for designing software and verifying their correctness.
20:20:01 <warpzero> huh
20:20:03 <warpzero> okay
20:20:53 <kc5tja> warpzero: Right now, I'm using it as a means of formally designing the software, and verifying the correctness of the design.  Then I'm going to use test-driven development techniques to test the real-world implementation.
20:21:09 <blockhead> 'nn all
20:21:11 <kc5tja> Formal methods + Unit Testing = *LOTS* of code coverage.
20:21:28 --- quit: blockhead ("laugha while you can, monkey boy")
20:21:29 <kc5tja> If Chandler were here, he'd probably say, "I told you so."  :)
20:21:46 <Herkamire> so you get race conditions when two statements get executed in the same tick, and they both set the same variable to different values
20:22:14 <kc5tja> Correct.  The interpreter, if it detects this (which most good ones do) will fail with an exception or something.
20:22:41 <Herkamire> nifty
20:22:57 <Herkamire> sounds very interesting
20:24:07 <kc5tja> It's funny watching folks define implementations of algorithms in an ASM that takes about as many lines as the average paragraph in English text, but in something like Lisp or whatever, the implementation is usually twice as big.
20:24:18 <kc5tja> All because it does away with WHILEs and the like.
20:24:32 <warpzero> hey kc5tja i was thinking about your whole thing here and
20:24:36 <Herkamire> I see
20:24:40 <kc5tja> There is no need for explicit looping constructs because looping is implicit in the ASM run-time engine.
20:24:53 <Herkamire> I can't completely wrap my brain around it ATM
20:24:55 <warpzero> i realized you're only steps away from shit like handheld calculators
20:25:28 <kc5tja> warpzero: I'm not sure I understand the context.  What 'thing', ASMs or Kestrel, or...
20:26:11 <warpzero> Well, Kestrel
20:26:30 <Herkamire> I can think of a lot of situations where I thought "it's just: in situation X do Y"
20:27:15 <Herkamire> but I thought/found that it was tricky to implement because checking for situation X is the correct times/places was not easy or reliable
20:28:00 <kc5tja> Herkamire: http://www.kettering.edu/~jhuggins/papers/primer.pdf
20:29:20 <kc5tja> Herkamire: But if the "virtual machine" in which such checks runs *depends* on it, and is a global feature of the "universe" in which the code runs, then it actually becomes relatively simple.  That's the key -- it needs to be ubigitous.
20:30:02 <kc5tja> warpzero: Too costly to get into that market though.
20:30:17 <kc5tja> The software would need to be developed, and both HP and TI already pretty much dominate the market.
20:31:04 <warpzero> kc5tja: ah hmm
20:31:11 <kc5tja> (and TI seems to be beating the *snot* out of HP at the moment; the TI-83+, TI-89, and TI-92 calculators are selling far more than HPs at the moment.)
20:31:23 <warpzero> and the HPs are better
20:31:27 <Herkamire> are there (many) applications that people use that run on an ASM?
20:31:49 <kc5tja> Herkamire: Well, like I said, ASMs are used to prove things about designs, processes, and software.
20:31:50 <Herkamire> or is it just a programming tool?
20:31:58 <kc5tja> An ASM isn't not a general purpose programming language.
20:32:07 <kc5tja> It's a formal method, used to help prove correctness of code.
20:32:41 <kc5tja> Although, part of my goal is to explore the use of ASMs as the foundations for a general purpose programming language.
20:33:00 <kc5tja> I am especially interested in compilation of an ASM to machine language representation, and to optimize it as much as I can.
20:33:34 <kc5tja> Most folks who use ASMs, though, don't even plug it into a computer modeling program.
20:33:54 <kc5tja> ASMs are so general purpose that most people derive excellent proofs entirely by hand, pencil, and paper.
20:34:26 <Herkamire> I see
20:34:29 <kc5tja> Indeed, just *writing* the ASM model of the FTS1001 assembler, I've found about three or four bugs that I probably never would have found otherwise, and probably have subtle interactions with working code that creates some of the weird issues that I'm seeing now.
20:34:35 <Herkamire> I don't yet understand how they help prove code correctnes.
20:34:46 <kc5tja> Well, think about it.
20:34:55 <Herkamire> I can see how they'd help show that an idea is something you could really implement
20:35:01 <kc5tja> Procedures (or macros) are direct, algebraic substitutions.
20:35:03 <warpzero> kc5tja: hmm... thats an area I will have to enter pretty soon [SMs to optimized assembly]
20:35:22 <kc5tja> warpzero: ASMs are most definitely not FSMs.
20:35:25 <Herkamire> but I don't see how it could show that a particular implementation (eg in forth) was correct
20:35:59 <Herkamire> FSM?
20:36:11 <kc5tja> Well, like I said, substitutions in ASMs are algebraic: you can substitute the body of a function for the function call itself.
20:36:17 <kc5tja> Herkamire: Finite State Machine.
20:36:53 <kc5tja> You can do this, if desired, down to the individual transistors on the microprocessor if you really desired such rigor in your formal proof (obviously, few ever do).
20:36:57 <warpzero> kc5tja: only parts of my state machines are Finite
20:37:25 <Herkamire> the music wafting in the window from the place accross the street sounds remarkably like the music I was just playing (Moe)
20:37:41 <Herkamire> I'm tempted to walk down there and find out who's playing
20:37:50 <kc5tja> Herkamire: Therefore, ASMs are provable by mathematical induction and contradiction proofs.
20:38:58 <kc5tja> For instance, by examining the abstract state progression of my assembler, one can prove, beyond any shadow of a doubt, that the value of Slot will *never*, as a matter of course of behavior from the assembler itself, exceed the value of MaxSlots.
20:39:56 <kc5tja> Consequently, in the same abstract machine, one can deduce from this that, for every increment of Slot AND from the assembly of a LIT instruction, there can be no more than MaxSlots increments of the Location variable.
20:40:24 <kc5tja> Therefore, and as a direct consequence of the assembler's modeled behavior, we know, for all time, that Location < InstructionLocation + 1 + MaxSlots.  Always.
20:41:31 <Herkamire> right. but how does that help you with your forth code?
20:41:40 <kc5tja> We can also know, from the behavioral model thus described, that Location *MUST* be greater than InstructionLocation by at least 1, or else the instruction itself will inevitably be overwritten by a later assembly operation.
20:41:48 <kc5tja> Ahh, good question.
20:42:33 <kc5tja> Now that we know the invariants and properties of the system, which we could NOT have *formally* proved otherwise, we can write assertions and tests inside the Forth program to ensure these same properties and invariants always hold true.
20:42:44 <kc5tja> This is basically the case of unit testing.
20:42:49 <kc5tja> But it doesn't stop there.
20:43:10 <Herkamire> I see
20:43:23 <kc5tja> Because ASMs are used to model sequential processes, among other things, we can prove an *equivalance* between a proven ASM model, and the real-world Forth code.
20:43:54 <kc5tja> If A is proven to be correct, and B is therefore proven to be equivalent to A (even if we cannot directly prove B to be correct), then by induction, B must also be correct.
20:43:55 <Herkamire> wow
20:44:30 <Herkamire> neat. I didn't realize you could prove equivalance between for and ASM statements
20:44:36 <Herkamire> s/for/forth/
20:44:47 <kc5tja> ASMs are really neat things.
20:44:55 <Herkamire> sounds very cool
20:45:05 <kc5tja> For example, note the statement: IF OPCODE IN { JA, JZ, JP, CALL, RFS } THEN
20:45:26 <Herkamire> for simple things like you described (location will never get more than 4 words ahead of where you are sticking instructions) you could deduce in your head.
20:45:28 <kc5tja> Opcode is defined (elsewhere in my document) as a state variable, a nullary function that returns the current opcode being assembled.
20:45:38 <kc5tja> But this need not correspond to a real-world, physical variable!
20:45:45 <Herkamire> but for more complex things, I can see it would be useful to have a formal way of putting your thoughts down.
20:46:01 <kc5tja> If, for example, I execute the Forth word "JA", whose purpose it is to compile a JA instruction, then is that not the same as explicitly setting Opcode to JA?  :)
20:46:02 <Herkamire> thus allowing you to browse around in it and focus on certain bits without forgetting the other parts
20:46:15 <Herkamire> and you could even have the computer check the integrity of your notes in various ways 
20:46:22 * kc5tja nods
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20:47:07 <kc5tja> Once it occured to me that Formal methods do not prove code to be correct, but that the code is equivalent to a model (which hopefully IS provably correct), that's when the light came on for me.
20:47:22 <kc5tja> And now I *finally* see Chandler's arguments as holding much more weight than they used to.
20:47:38 <Herkamire> :)
20:47:48 <Herkamire> what was his argument?
20:47:50 <kc5tja> BTW, one VERY rarely uses a *complete* model of a *complete* program.
20:48:21 <kc5tja> Herkamire: That unit tests weren't the same thing as proofs, and that a proof can prove the lack of existance of a bug (this is, of course, false; if the MODEL is buggy, then there will be a bug in the "proven" code).
20:48:22 <Herkamire> ok
20:48:35 <kc5tja> This is a very sophisticated way of saying, "You can never prove a negative."
20:48:45 <kc5tja> Including that very statement.
20:48:46 <Herkamire> lol
20:49:09 <Herkamire> all generalizations are wrong
20:49:14 <kc5tja> Yep.
20:49:25 <kc5tja> and the Formal methods community at large are finally starting to wake up to that realization.
20:49:39 <Herkamire> :(
20:49:40 <Herkamire> :)
20:50:08 --- quit: goshawk` (Client Quit)
20:50:28 <kc5tja> I also find that formal methods has a LOT in common with Chuck's philosophy.
20:50:34 <Herkamire> I'm sceptical about proving code in any way
20:50:39 <kc5tja> Think, think some more, then think again about what you're trying to code.
20:50:47 <kc5tja> (sounds like formally proving your code to me!)
20:50:59 <kc5tja> Then, code several different implementations, benchmark, verify, and validate.
20:51:05 <kc5tja> Choose the best one.
20:51:08 <kc5tja> REPEAT as necessary.
20:51:36 <kc5tja> Herkamire: Well, the trick is simple: don't prove your code.
20:51:52 <kc5tja> make a model that, mathematically speaking, CANNOT fail under the terms of your requirements.
20:51:54 --- join: synova ([6ru28IxKe@166.84.1.5) joined #forth
20:52:03 <kc5tja> THEN, make software that implements that model.
20:52:06 <kc5tja> Faithfully.
20:52:19 <Herkamire> sounds good
20:52:30 <synova> any Mops users here?
20:52:43 <kc5tja> Then, using the semantics of the programming language you're using (which MUST, axiomatically speaking, be taken as correct and true), you can "prove" the correct of your code by equivalence proofs.
20:53:13 <kc5tja> synova: Hmm...nope.  Is Mops still being maintained though?  Sounds like a nice system.
20:53:28 <synova> kc5tja: very much so.
20:53:36 <synova> its been carbon for two years now.
20:53:41 <kc5tja> Sweet.
20:53:51 <Herkamire> MOPS was ported to Mac OS X fairly quick
20:53:55 <synova> http://www.powermops.org/
20:54:08 <kc5tja> niec.
20:54:15 * kc5tja should finish his Forth environment someday.  :)
20:54:27 <kc5tja> And start making some Linux executables with it.
20:54:30 <Herkamire> :) me too
20:54:43 <synova> herk: the new beta put out today can call Mah-O format libraries/frameworks
20:54:49 <Herkamire> I have linux executables. I should make it so people with Mac OS X can try my  forth
20:54:51 <synova> Mach-O, rather
20:55:01 <Herkamire> nice.
20:55:02 <synova> kc5: which one, if I may ask?
20:55:11 <kc5tja> synova: it's not public.  FTS/Forth.
20:55:24 <synova> oh. will it ever be made public? :-)
20:55:31 <kc5tja> I have finished its target compiler, so I can (from within GForth) make x86 binaries, statically linked of course.
20:55:38 <Herkamire> I should finish my Mac OS X port. I think I got the Mach-O header figured out. that was what I thougt would be the hard part
20:56:04 <synova> herk: that would be nice. I don't know how to gauge the userbase, but I know that would interest someone out there
20:56:18 <kc5tja> synova: Yes, as long as people realize my vision dominates.  :)  The goal for FTS/Forth is to be a very minimal Forth, much like cmForth, but for Linux x86 (or for any other processor architecture folks want to port it to).
20:56:25 <synova> so far, it seems Mops and MacForth have the lion's share.
20:56:34 <kc5tja> It's heavily inspired by the techniques employed in ColorForth to achieve this goal.
20:56:43 <synova> kc5: that's the fun of "rolling your own". :-)
20:56:56 <synova> kc5: neat! I'll look forward to it.
20:57:09 <kc5tja> synova: I should perhaps make a project page for it on my website.
20:57:18 <kc5tja> (man, my project page is actually accumulating some stuff)
20:57:25 <Herkamire> yeah :) when you roll your own you get to create a system with all your favorite features from all the forths you've tried/heard-of
20:57:29 <synova> kc5: I think that would be a great idea.
20:57:31 <Herkamire> and your own nifty ideas :)
20:57:58 <warpzero> scrollback marker
20:58:04 <kc5tja> synova: I believe in Bazaar-style development, but I always was told, "Don't release until you have something done."  FTS/Forth itself isn't done, not even in 0.0.1 version.
20:58:13 <kc5tja> BUT...the target compiler IS done, so I suppose that's a start.
20:58:23 <synova> kc5: I don't see why you can't do that.
20:58:38 <synova> it may not be a production copy, but it often finds a niche for someone.
20:58:57 <synova> if it doesn't hurt one bit to release something a day before "it's ready", why not? :P
20:59:04 <kc5tja> People have to know about it first, and this isn't the type of thing Freshmeat would really be interested in.
20:59:19 <synova> I always feel there is at least one person whose day you'll brighten
20:59:32 <warpzero>  
20:59:51 <synova> a new project, a useful segment of code, etc. even if it doesn't end up in the project put forth.
21:00:02 <Herkamire> I say release it as soon as it does anything or has any useful documentation
21:00:22 <warpzero> i should finalize my language specification
21:00:33 <synova> documentation is probably the biggest thing people forget
21:00:35 <warpzero> but i have no idea how to write a real language specification
21:00:41 <synova> people say, "oh! I'll do it later!"
21:00:43 <synova> but they don't.
21:00:52 <synova> and no one else is competent or qualified to do it for you.
21:01:06 <kc5tja> Right now, my documentation is nil.
21:01:14 <warpzero> hey uh
21:01:14 <kc5tja> The problem is, Forth is *always* a moving target.
21:01:23 <synova> many worthwhile projects are shot down that way.
21:01:23 <kc5tja> Especially a boot-strapping target compiler.
21:01:25 <synova> sure.
21:01:26 <warpzero> how do I write a language specification?
21:01:36 <synova> in the initial stages, its ok not to bother
21:01:48 <synova> but I think it is a good idea at some point to put the innovation aside
21:01:50 <synova> freeze the codebase
21:01:59 <synova> and just document it to the point where other people can ease into it
21:02:32 <synova> its safe to presume that most people who you'll need to hand-hold won't be around tomorrow.
21:02:41 <synova> but, at least make sure "it's all there"
21:02:54 <synova> so, there aren't too many ambiguities if someone does decide to give a damn.
21:03:12 <synova> am I unrealistic?
21:03:18 <kc5tja> I don't know.
21:03:26 <kc5tja> I've never managed a "successful" open source project before.
21:03:44 <kc5tja> To be honest, I've never been successful at pretty much anything I've ever done in life, save one: Aikido.
21:03:59 <synova> well, make this one the first, then.
21:04:29 <kc5tja> easier said than done.
21:04:46 <synova> most projects I've seen, die not because the author isn't committed (although that happens, too), but because prospective users don't know why, where, and how they should start
21:05:15 <synova> kc5: maybe not. if you put your blood into seeing it through, I think the implementation will fall together for you.
21:05:16 <kc5tja> And I have no explanation for why, no advice for where, nor any idea how any prospective users should start.
21:05:22 <kc5tja> I wrote the compiler to serve me, and my interests only.
21:05:30 <warpzero> like is there a formal method for writing a language specification
21:05:33 <warpzero> i mean i have my notes
21:05:42 <warpzero> which are complete but by no means very formal
21:05:59 <synova> warp: well, I suppose there are things like the ANSI people do.
21:06:12 <warpzero> hmm
21:06:14 <synova> and while I suppose it is fairly robust, I am not sure it is ever entirely complete
21:06:23 <synova> or comprehendable to the people you want in on it in the first place.
21:06:24 <kc5tja> warpzero: Formal methods are used for rigorous proofs about the thing you're specifying -- they let you reason logically about it.  
21:06:34 <warpzero> kc5tja: right
21:06:50 <warpzero> kc5tja: the thing is that my descriptions of my language are wholly inadequate
21:06:55 <synova> kc5: it would be easier if you had an idea of why a prospective user would be interested in your project
21:07:01 <kc5tja> warpzero: I don't think you'll want to use a Formal Method on your project unless you want to prove some kind of correctness, or otherwise that it meets some kind of criteria.
21:07:07 <synova> who, really, would benefit from your project?
21:07:15 <synova> in a sense, its marketing, as much as technical prowess, I think.
21:07:18 <Herkamire> I highly recomend putting the documentation for an ever-changing project in a wiki
21:07:36 <synova> herk: a great idea. I've been toying with this myself.
21:08:00 <synova> (the idea, that is.)
21:08:01 <Herkamire> herkforth is sooo much better documented now that I moved it's documentation into my wiki
21:08:08 <warpzero> kc5tja: its just that i mean i can describe all the syntactical elements but at the end you're still like "what"
21:08:08 <synova> yeah.
21:08:23 <kc5tja> synova: I can't think of anyone who would be interested in my project, except a handful of masochists.  The Forth I'm making isn't ANSI, and never will be, so it won't appeal to 90% of even the *FORTH* using population.  :)
21:08:37 <synova> kc5: haha
21:08:55 <synova> Well, do you think it is a good project?
21:09:00 <Herkamire> kc5tja: that might not be the right aproach... ;)
21:09:04 <synova> for those possible 10%, would it be worth their time?
21:09:25 <kc5tja> synova: The other 10% have either written their own, or are writing their own, Forth system, from what I can tell.
21:09:41 <Herkamire> kc5tja: what gets me into a new system is a good tutorial
21:09:45 <synova> kc5: maybe that is because they are waiting for something else to come along?
21:10:06 <kc5tja> synova: Perhaps, but then again, so am I.  Are you familiar with Pygmy Forth at all?
21:10:10 <Herkamire> if I can't get a system to do something I want in 30 minutes I'm likely to drop it
21:10:20 <synova> synova: no, why?
21:10:20 <warpzero>  
21:10:33 <kc5tja> synova: Oh, then you'd have some basis for understanding what it is I want to see on Linux.
21:10:42 <synova> oh, ok.
21:11:03 <kc5tja> Mops, as I understand it, is based on Forth-83, which is a pretty big, and bloated, Forth implementation.
21:11:09 <synova> synova: even so, I think a good idea stands for itself if someone doesn't mind putting their reputation on the line.
21:11:09 <kc5tja> (well, ANSI now-a-days, IIRC)
21:11:43 <synova> if they are saying, "I made this", and "I think you'll like it, too", and really mean it...that kind of attitude often attracts the right kind of people.
21:12:03 <synova> kc5: well, it's basically OO more than anything else.
21:12:04 <kc5tja> I've been meaning to put it up on the website for a while now.  It's just that I've never gotten around to it because I've been working so hard on the FTS1001's implementation and assembler software.
21:12:26 <synova> its ANS, but has some obvious vestiges of other dialects, like you say
21:12:30 <kc5tja> synova: Yeah, but it's still based on a standard Forth implementation.
21:12:37 <synova> if you know the background, it was originally a reimplementation of Neon.
21:12:42 <kc5tja> My system is based on . . . nothing.  :)
21:13:07 <synova> kc5: I think you underestimate the power of a "can do" attitude
21:13:13 <synova> and I'll say bluntly...
21:13:19 <synova> if you don't have one, you won't do *anything*
21:13:20 <kc5tja> FTS/Forth is a grass-roots implementation of Forth, designed for minimalism in every respect I can think of.
21:13:28 <synova> I am sure that sounds hopelessly naive, but I'm serious
21:13:51 <kc5tja> no, I've been known throughout my years to have *MASSIVE* confidence issues.
21:13:54 <synova> kc5: thats what made Forth special
21:14:01 <synova> simplicity
21:14:08 <synova> minimimalism
21:14:15 <synova> fundamental elegance
21:14:18 <synova> etc.
21:14:24 <synova> all the over-used rhetoric
21:14:37 <synova> I don't see why its a problem, just because most people seem convinced that OpenGL is the future, say.
21:14:52 <synova> kc5: I understand about the confidence.
21:15:19 <synova> but, I think it may be more important than your technical prowess
21:15:30 <synova> total jerkoffs make millions/billions.
21:15:32 <kc5tja> That's true of anyone and anything.
21:15:32 <synova> why?
21:15:44 <synova> because they don't *think* they can
21:15:46 <synova> but *know* they can
21:15:47 <synova> and do
21:15:47 <kc5tja> But then, I also get burned out on projects VERY fast too.
21:16:05 <kc5tja> And then I lose that "can do" attitude really quick.
21:16:37 <synova> if I may ask, what is the nature of the process leading to the burnout?
21:16:39 <kc5tja> That happened to me with my Dolphin project.
21:16:52 <kc5tja> synova: It's an intrinsic trait of mine.
21:17:11 <kc5tja> Once something becomes uninteresting to me, it becomes a chore.  And I dislike chores.
21:17:28 <synova> well, I understand. I'm not saying you should do something you don't like doing.
21:17:34 <kc5tja> Under no circumstances have I ever had the ability to pinpoint what the cause of burnout is.
21:17:37 <synova> I'm asking what do you do before the burnout happens?
21:18:05 <synova> what is your creative process?
21:18:09 <synova> the kind of schedule you keep?
21:18:15 <kc5tja> I can't answer that question.  I need someone else to observe my actions to answer that.
21:18:23 <kc5tja> I keep no schedule.
21:18:36 <kc5tja> I do what I enjoy working on at the time I work on it.
21:18:47 <kc5tja> Schedules are very, very painful for me.
21:19:04 <synova> well, you shouldn't stifle your creativity by making it into a routine.
21:19:25 <kc5tja> My creative process involves just loafing around, letting my mind roam free, often listening to music, or just sitting back and talking about things with someone else.
21:19:28 <synova> but I do think you are quite capable of observing your own actions.
21:19:43 <synova> I think you are the most capable person of doing that, in fact.
21:19:50 <Herkamire> technical innovation and simplicity are very useful (like the kind of stuff that we are rolling our forths out of), and I wouldn't want a system without it, but I think the key thing to making something populer and generally useful (or if it's not the key thing, it's just the thing that is most often missing) is training/guiding/teaching/documentation. it guides someone on a fun adventure from never having seen anything like it, to understanding the system 
21:20:10 <Herkamire> wow that was long. did it come through all the way to "his needs"?
21:20:15 <synova> herk: exactly. you need to give them a foundation of some kind.
21:20:48 <kc5tja> Herkamire: For FTS/Forth, that would involve writing a book, comparable to Starting Forth, but tailored to FTS/Forth, explaining both details and philosophy.
21:20:53 <kc5tja> And I just don't have the time for that.
21:20:54 <synova> once you get them started, the dedicated one won't need much else.
21:21:00 <synova> they'll know how to get their own fish, so to speak.
21:21:15 <synova> kc5: I don't think you need to write a book to do that
21:21:21 <kc5tja> synova: Sorry, I'm not really cognizant of my own actions when I'm deeply involved in a project.
21:21:30 <Herkamire> starting forth is great
21:21:39 <Herkamire> we can write good tutorials like that
21:22:02 <synova> I think wiki's, as herk pointed out, even simple bare-bones web pages do a good job
21:22:08 <kc5tja> synova: Everything I learned about computers, I taught myself, from ground up, from first principles.  I am adament, 100% confident even, that that is the only "fun" way to learn.
21:22:11 <synova> if you make sure each sentence on the page serves a purpose.
21:22:25 <synova> kc5: I think that is the best way to go.
21:22:39 <synova> I'm saying your confidence in your own ability is your only problem.
21:22:39 <synova> not your techni
21:22:39 <synova> cal 
21:22:42 <synova> prowess.
21:22:52 <synova> (if I may direct/blunt.)
21:22:57 <synova> may = may be
21:23:01 <kc5tja> Well, I don't have the patience to write a book, or a tutorial.
21:23:08 <synova> you don't have to do the documentation.
21:23:12 <synova> I'm not equating that.
21:23:14 <kc5tja> At least one in depth enough to train someone on how to use FTS/Forth.
21:23:48 <synova> All I'm saying is you need more faith that it will fall together, as long as you can stay on track.
21:23:54 <synova> I think burnout is good, sometimes.
21:24:06 <synova> because I think it signals that an idea has a hit a dead-end.
21:24:10 <kc5tja> synova: I'm just one big burnout though.  Everything I do, I get burnt out.
21:24:14 <synova> it would not go further.
21:24:18 <synova> for whatever reason.
21:24:25 <synova> at least using the current system of reasoning.
21:24:35 <kc5tja> I don't believe that.  Maybe sometimes, but absolutely not as a generalized case.
21:24:45 <synova> I'm not saying it wasn't a good idea.
21:24:49 <synova> or would not have sold.
21:24:51 <synova> or whatever.
21:24:59 <synova> I'm saying it ceased to serve a purpose for you.
21:25:14 <synova> in one way or another, you lost interest...and couldn't stand working on it any longer.
21:25:20 <synova> I don't think you should lament those cases as failures.
21:25:22 <Herkamire> it just get's booring
21:25:25 <Herkamire> I do the same thing
21:25:32 <Herkamire> I'm really scared it will happen to herkforth too
21:25:41 <synova> its annoying to waste time, i know, especially if you're in a dire situation and want something started.
21:26:19 <synova> herk: I don't think you need to worry about that.
21:26:34 <synova> if a project had good ideas or ambitions, you will use them later
21:26:38 <synova> (in ways you don't realize.)
21:26:45 <kc5tja> Well, sure.
21:26:45 <synova> just because project X didn't work out
21:26:49 <Herkamire> I've been programming for about 10 years, and have only brought one program to the point where I felt I could really say it's finished enough
21:26:50 <kc5tja> I re-use ideas all the time.
21:27:01 <synova> doesn't mean that you can't take your experience and do project Y 100 times better.
21:27:33 <Herkamire> synova: sure. I progress
21:27:39 <Herkamire> but I don't produce good software
21:27:39 <synova> kc5: absolutely. its silly to put up walls between different areas of expertise
21:27:45 <synova> it is all really the same, I think.
21:27:47 <synova> knowledge.
21:28:00 <Herkamire> but I want to improve the world, not just myself
21:28:13 <kc5tja> But where am I going with all this knowledge?
21:28:21 <kc5tja> It seems like I have so much knowledge, that I can't do anything with it.
21:28:27 <Herkamire> I want to share knowledge and make computers more useful and more fun
21:28:42 <synova> kc5: I don't think you trust yourself enough to say that you *can* do something with it.
21:28:51 <synova> kc5: and there's no shame in that.
21:29:00 <kc5tja> I've recently considered resuming Dolphin after almost 5 years of inactivity on it (has it been that long???).  But where will it go?  Will it just suffer and die again, like its predecessors?
21:29:00 <synova> think of software.
21:29:03 <synova> you start off with an idea.
21:29:06 <synova> it didn't work.
21:29:08 <synova> it evolves.
21:29:11 <synova> you keep working at it.
21:29:14 <synova> you hit bugs.
21:29:15 <synova> it evolves.
21:29:17 <synova> you need features.
21:29:20 <synova> it evolves.
21:29:30 <synova> why can't your ambition be similar to programming?
21:29:35 <synova> throw yourself at something
21:29:42 <synova> don't worry about making it a career.
21:29:45 <kc5tja> Because nothing ever comes to completion.
21:29:47 <synova> just do it seriously, and keep working at it
21:29:55 <kc5tja> I have what some might call, "Seymour Cray Syndrome."
21:29:58 <synova> you need to factor and factor until the "solution" to your next step falls out.
21:30:15 <kc5tja> I am a great starter of projects, but I need a fleet of employees (or volunteers at the least) to finish them.
21:30:29 <Herkamire> volunteers
21:30:33 <Herkamire> they are much cheaper :)
21:30:53 <synova> kc5: well, but you need to give your new army a dream
21:30:59 <kc5tja> Irrelavent -- the point is, Cray never finished a project in his life -- he *always* had someone or some team nearby who'd finish his work for him.
21:31:09 <synova> they can't feel like they are just doing the grunt work for something they don't think is going to work
21:31:13 <synova> or will do anything for them
21:31:18 <synova> or at least, won't satisfy them.
21:31:28 <kc5tja> Precisely, and that brings me to the second problem I see in today's word:
21:31:29 <Herkamire> the other thing that's been sapping my herkforth energy lately, is that I think that the only really good software, is software that has been rewritten several times.
21:31:43 <kc5tja> It boils down to the old adage, "Everything that CAN be invented, HAS been invented."
21:31:52 <Herkamire> and I'm starting to think that I should rewrite herkforth in the near future.
21:31:52 <kc5tja> Substitute the verb of your choice for Invented.
21:32:02 <Herkamire> it certainly will go through a transformation
21:32:11 <kc5tja> Nobody would ever consider, in any serious numbers, using an OS other than Windows or Linux on their desktops.
21:32:19 <synova> kc5: let us say that were all
21:32:23 <kc5tja> Forth is a "dead" language in the commercial world, basically.
21:32:25 <synova> that everything we have is already here.
21:32:33 <synova> why aren't we not better off then we are?
21:32:35 <kc5tja> etc.
21:32:42 <synova> (from a social/economic/etc. perspective.)
21:32:42 <kc5tja> Everything I do is retro.
21:32:56 <kc5tja> Nothing ever pushes the envelop of what's out there.
21:32:57 <kc5tja> Nothing.
21:33:07 <kc5tja> s/Nothing ever/Nothing I ever do ever/
21:33:17 <synova> I don't think Forth is retro
21:33:24 <synova> I think Forth is a concept that has yet to be appreciated.
21:33:26 <synova> and no.
21:33:29 <Herkamire> kc5tja: really?
21:33:31 <synova> it is not a money-maker at this point.
21:33:39 <kc5tja> And never will be.
21:33:47 <synova> and no. just using it won't earn you the respect of your peers.
21:33:54 <synova> but, seriously, what is programming for?
21:34:10 <synova> do we dit in our cubicles (or whatever) and just program because we like to?
21:34:16 <synova> or because our programs bring us to places?
21:34:24 <Herkamire> most of my programming (aside from early projects for the knowledge) are experimenting with some new idea that I don't think has been done before
21:34:28 <synova> I don't see the computer as a very useful tool at all if it could not improve other aspects of our lives.
21:34:36 <Herkamire> there's at least something new about it.
21:34:45 <Herkamire> I don't always do a lot of research to see if others have done it before.
21:34:53 <synova> herk: right. even if an idea is old, it hasn't been employed from that perspective.
21:34:59 <Herkamire> I do loose interest when it's been done well before
21:35:19 <synova> if you want to believe that the universe is made from the same matter it was made from how many X years ago
21:35:19 <Herkamire> my major project that got almost to production quality, was a mandelbrot/julia set fractal generator
21:35:27 <synova> then I guess life sounds pretty damn meaningless
21:35:37 <synova> but, I think the reorganization of it all is the delight.
21:35:47 <synova> and I think inventions/software, etc. is included in that
21:36:00 <Herkamire> I would have ported it to GNU/Linux, but there's a better one already, so I lost interest (gnofract4d I t hink).
21:36:08 <synova> I think never before, have anyone had the opportunity to objectify their ideas in such a rigorous fashion
21:36:16 <Herkamire> it already does a bunch of the stuff I wanted to try
21:36:20 <Herkamire> it satisfied my curiosity
21:36:38 <kc5tja> synova: Except when you clash with patents.
21:36:41 <synova> I think computers do that.
21:36:51 <synova> kc5: excuse my french, but fuck patents.
21:36:51 <Herkamire> yeah, software patents are really scary
21:36:54 <synova> ideas matter more.
21:36:55 <Herkamire> and stupid
21:37:01 <synova> software patents are a political fad.
21:37:06 <Herkamire> patents make it illegal to use ideas
21:37:20 <kc5tja> synova: I'll fuck patents only when I can be assured I won't be sued off my rocker, if per chance my project becomes successful.
21:37:28 <Herkamire> it doesn't matter how stupid and immoral they are, you can still get sued for writing software you came up with yourself
21:38:07 <synova> that's why GPL and other things are a good way to begin for the small-time programmer.
21:38:25 <Herkamire> oh, to argue a previous point, I think that a lot of people would use something other than windows or linux.
21:38:33 <Herkamire> a lot of people only do email and web surfing.
21:38:39 <kc5tja> That doesn't protect me!  GPL is just as vulnerable to patent infringement as anything else.
21:38:43 <Herkamire> (and a lot only do their email on the web)
21:38:52 <synova> I honestly think software patents are an excuse by some people to not stick their head above the ground and see the daylight.
21:38:58 <Herkamire> so if you provide easy software to do those things, a lot of people don't care if it's windows or dolphin
21:39:01 <synova> that was precisely the point of software patents (at this point).
21:39:10 <Herkamire> and a lot more people just do those things and word processing
21:39:13 <synova> they don't have the means to enforce it in most countries, so it is a snowjob.
21:40:04 <synova> herk: that is how they see computers improving their lives (at least as the idea was "sold" to them), so that is how they've integrated into their lives.
21:40:37 <synova> but, most of those people aren't the driving force of innovation
21:40:49 <Herkamire> what?
21:40:50 <synova> what does it matter that someone used Dolphin, Windows, or whatever to do his taxes?
21:41:03 <kc5tja> The original purpose of Dolphin, when I started it, was to be as close to AmigaOS as I could make it, in terms of visual appearance, usability, programmability, and EASE of programmability.
21:41:07 <synova> if your only job is to sell software on a mass scale, I guess it matters.
21:41:27 <synova> but, I think there is more of a market than that
21:41:28 <Herkamire> services
21:41:32 <Herkamire> services services
21:41:34 <synova> and even if not services.
21:41:49 <synova> I don't think we've even properly exploited the "free market" as much as we should have
21:41:52 <kc5tja> synova: My last business was in the services industry -- it failed.  Miserably.
21:41:55 <synova> economically, we're very unimaginative.
21:42:03 <synova> and honestly, it can't go on much longer like this.
21:42:19 <synova> this, right now, is one of the worst times since the great depression for all industries
21:42:38 <kc5tja> synova: It'll only get worse with the coming oil crises.
21:42:45 <synova> so, I don't think this time should be observed as the framework for which to view future projects.
21:42:59 <Herkamire> one idea to make a bunch of money with herkforth: make a very compitible browser, and sell computers to libraries for $200.
21:43:05 <Herkamire> and support for $50/hour
21:43:20 <synova> the problem right now is that there is no distribution of wealth.
21:43:25 <synova> no one *has* any money
21:43:32 * kc5tja raises his hand.
21:43:33 <Herkamire> it would be a sleek little system that would browse as well as windowze, for a fraction of the cost
21:43:40 <synova> and usually things classified as "less-essential" are the first to go
21:43:48 <synova> so, I don't see how this can be perpetuated forever.
21:44:08 <synova> the world economy needs distribution of wealth to survive, otherwise it will fail
21:44:11 <synova> (at least temporarily)
21:44:38 <Herkamire> I dunno anything about that
21:44:39 <kc5tja> Well, it's failing...miserably...and the religious right is taking over.
21:44:43 <synova> kc5: I don't think you should be taking any of this personally, at least in respect to why your ideas don't pan out for one reason or another
21:44:45 <Herkamire> we need less government here in the US
21:44:50 <kc5tja> Welcome to the Neo-Dark Ages.
21:45:02 <synova> kc5: I used to believe that, too.
21:45:08 <synova> especially after 9/11.
21:45:14 <synova> I don't believe that is true, anymore.
21:45:18 <synova> I think it is a snowjob.
21:45:20 <synova> they talk louder.
21:45:25 <synova> they're violent.
21:45:32 <kc5tja> They're in office.
21:45:43 <synova> we have hicks moving into all "cultured"/educated neighborhoods to throw off the vote
21:45:45 --- join: Sonarman_ (~matt@adsl-64-160-164-73.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined #forth
21:45:50 <kc5tja> And for all the bible thumpin' they do, they got all the cash.
21:45:52 <synova> the fact is we are going to have another term of Mr. Bush.
21:45:57 <synova> but, you know what?
21:45:59 <synova> I want him too.
21:46:13 <Herkamire> why?
21:46:13 <kc5tja> I don't.
21:46:19 <synova> because this economic turmoil is going to get so bad that it will create a reverse period.
21:46:22 <kc5tja> He can lick baboon balls as far as I'm concerned.
21:46:26 <synova> period = pyramid
21:46:37 <synova> what happens with a reverse pyramid when you remove the ground level?
21:46:53 <synova> right now, you have every single industry owned by a few
21:46:55 <Herkamire> synova: are you banking on a revolution?
21:47:51 <kc5tja> Yes, I'm very confused now.  I'm not at all seeing where this is going.
21:48:37 --- quit: Sonarman (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
21:48:45 <kc5tja> I think we lost him.
21:50:39 <kc5tja> Yep, we lost him.
21:50:41 --- quit: synova (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
21:50:41 --- quit: Herkamire (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
21:50:42 <kc5tja> I can't ping him at all.
21:51:25 --- join: synova ([xsrhcfOPs@panix5.panix.com) joined #forth
21:51:29 <kc5tja> wb
21:51:30 <synova> convenient time to go..
21:51:32 <synova> thanks.
21:51:36 <synova> may I post about ten lines here?
21:51:42 <kc5tja> Sure.
21:51:45 <synova> (in one shot, without getting booted?)
21:52:00 <kc5tja> I've been flooding the channel all day with examples from abstract state machines.  Go ahead.  :)
21:52:03 <synova> 00:47 <synova> all money essentially in the hands of a few
21:52:03 <synova> 00:47 <synova> herk: no.
21:52:03 <synova> 00:47 <synova> I think the people are too "damaged" to revolt...at least in any serious way
21:52:07 <synova> 00:47 <synova> sure...we have anti-war protests
21:52:14 <synova> 00:47 <synova> but the administration called everyone's bluff
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21:52:41 <synova_> bastard.
21:52:51 <kc5tja> I got up to "but the administration called everyone's bluff."
21:52:55 <kc5tja> I'm not following this at all.
21:53:11 <Herkamire> geeze that was a nasty split
21:53:12 <kc5tja> or, more accurately, I just don't see the relavence.
21:53:15 <synova_> basically, I don't think we are going to have any kind of revolution
21:53:30 <kc5tja> No, the media won't allow it.
21:53:31 <Herkamire> I don't know anything about distrobution of wealth.
21:53:34 <Herkamire> I know any intelligent person can get the money they need
21:53:34 <synova_> well, all I was saying is that I don't think you should gauge the current market conditions
21:53:35 <Herkamire> and I know that the government does it's best to take half of it.
21:53:37 <Herkamire> and it wasts most of it, and uses most of the rest to harass us with stupid laws, and bullie the rest of the world
21:53:54 <synova_> herk: the problem is, the people are the government
21:54:09 <synova_> they've just been happy to let someone else be responsible for their lives for them.
21:54:12 --- quit: synova (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
21:54:20 --- nick: synova_ -> synova
21:54:27 <Herkamire> no
21:54:31 <synova> even dictatorships have that kind of thing going on
21:54:42 <Herkamire> the people are not the government
21:54:44 <kc5tja> The people would be the government if they were informed.
21:54:46 <kc5tja> They're not.
21:54:51 <Herkamire> the government mostly does what big corperations want
21:54:58 <synova> herk: that is what it seems
21:55:06 <Herkamire> synova: that's what happens
21:55:07 <synova> but most of the propaganda is aimed towards regular people
21:55:15 <kc5tja> The people of this nation are utterly brainwashed.  All they care about is when the next Barbie doll is coming out for their children, what's going down on Days of our Lives, and when the Raiders will compete next season.
21:55:17 <synova> why do they feel the need to appeal to the rest of us if we are not important?
21:55:21 <Herkamire> you think the DMCA actually benifits the populice?
21:55:34 <synova> herk: no. the laws are created for someone else's benefit
21:55:52 <synova> I'm saying it simply could not have happened if the populace realized how much of their tremendous power they wielded each and every day
21:55:53 <Herkamire> synova: right, the big corperations
21:56:08 <synova> instead, a single police "bust" will scare 100,000 people
21:56:22 <Herkamire> most americans are scared
21:56:26 <synova> the con is making people beat up on one another
21:56:30 <Herkamire> probably because of the media
21:56:36 <synova> to believe they are in on this "society" thing all by themselves
21:56:54 <synova> when you encourage parents to turn in their kids to schools or the police for drug habits, or psychological counseling
21:57:07 <synova> you perpetrate the fundamental uproot of trust necessary to any form of cooperation
21:57:09 <kc5tja> synova: There is a book by Noam Chomsky, called Manufacturing Consent.  Now, love him or hate him, you cannot deny that that phrase was used deliberately: it was the key phrase used by a top government official back in the late 30s (I forget who, though), used to suggest HOW the government should influence and subjugate the American thinking population.
21:57:13 --- nick: rO|afk -> rO|
21:57:19 <rO|> aloha
21:57:21 <kc5tja> All this without American consent or voter approval.
21:57:33 <kc5tja> We never had a *chance* to respond to the idea of letting other do our thinking for us.
21:57:36 <kc5tja> it just *happened*.
21:57:52 <synova> kc5: thats right. but the fact that it has *seemed* to work that way all along doesn't make the fact that it doesn't work that way not true
21:57:59 <synova> (if I could make that any less confusing, I would.)
21:58:29 <Herkamire> synova: I can't make any sense of that
21:58:31 <kc5tja> Objective evidence suggests that it does work that way.
21:58:41 <synova> just because a few "experts" resounded some awful quotes (demonstrating the kind of "morality" we accept to lead us), doesn't mean people don't really hold the power.
21:58:47 <kc5tja> It worked for the Russian Communists, it worked for the Germans in the Weimar republic, and now it's working for us too.
21:58:49 <synova> if the people didn't hold power
21:58:53 <synova> there would be no need for the media
21:59:08 <synova> no need for magazines, news sites, fireside chats, state of the unions, wars, etc.
21:59:25 <Herkamire> there isn't a need for them now
21:59:27 <synova> these are illusions to make it seems that they wield more power over us than they do.
21:59:30 <kc5tja> But that's just it -- the media exists to satisfy our feral needs.
21:59:50 <synova> kc5: it exists to satiate us, which it isn't doing.
22:00:03 <kc5tja> As a population, we LOVE to see the blood and gore our armies are inflicting.  We LOVE to see that oil pumping into our borders.  And we just LOVE to see high morals in the form of the Christian Right.
22:00:06 <synova> as it is, they had to cheat two elections
22:00:11 <synova> and they'll cheat another one.
22:00:19 <kc5tja> we'll see.
22:00:36 <kc5tja> I really don't hold any faith what-so-ever in the average American's ability to think for themselves.
22:00:38 <synova> kc5: people have lost faith in religion
22:00:48 <synova> the christian right is actually a minority
22:00:50 <kc5tja> Peer pressure and competition in this country is just to feirce, on too many levels.
22:00:56 <rO|> http://slate.msn.com/id/2100064/ not very deep, interesting though.. ;-)
22:01:03 <synova> the persecution of the catholic church could not have happened any other way
22:01:13 <kc5tja> synova: I know they are, but they are the ones with *power*.
22:01:23 <kc5tja> And that's all that matters.
22:01:29 <synova> kc5: you're right. as long as the people believe that, that's too true.
22:01:36 <kc5tja> Call me a pragmatist if you want, but that's the God's-Honest(tm) truth.
22:01:50 <synova> I'm saying that can change tomorrow, if people wanted it that way
22:01:55 <synova> but it won't
22:01:57 <synova> at least not yet
22:02:02 <kc5tja> But people won't, because they're brain-washed.
22:02:06 <synova> I'm saying we'll have an economic meltdown, first.
22:02:14 <synova> well, people are starting to wake up.
22:02:24 <kc5tja> And yes, I turned my back on religion, because I recognized its brainwashing effects on me at a very young age -- 8.
22:02:33 <Herkamire> I don't want to have an economic meltdown. it's not pretty
22:02:38 <synova> kc5: impressive!
22:02:47 <Herkamire> but it will happen if the government keeps getting bigger and bigger at this rate
22:02:51 <synova> herk: the alternative is less pretty. and less than human.
22:03:08 <synova> and I'm saying that a true dictatoriship cannot sustain itself in a country like the US
22:03:10 <Herkamire> synova: what alternative?
22:03:22 <Herkamire> why said anything about dictatorship?
22:03:25 <synova> it works in places like Argentina because of European and American support
22:03:38 <synova> herk: because, in a sense, oligarchy/dictatorship is where we are heading
22:03:42 <Herkamire> people in america are afraid
22:03:47 <Herkamire> and they respond well to fear
22:03:47 <synova> as we disband most of the basic constructs of a free society
22:03:55 <Herkamire> that's why catholisism works here
22:04:07 <synova> herk: but they are also mad that they are fearful. many people are catching on that it is the government's fault they feel that way
22:04:19 <kc5tja> synova: Funny you should mention this.  I've been reading a book by Leonard Peikoff called "Ominous Parallels," that relates the evolution of America's government to that of Nazi Germany.
22:04:21 <synova> even if they do not realize that it was a sinister plan for it work that way
22:04:29 <synova> you can't tell these people that 9/11 wasn't accident
22:04:36 <synova> they still believe in the "good and honest" American government
22:04:38 <Herkamire> even though it's mind bogglingly stupid and self contradicting, the christian religions that go around saying "believe this or you'll burn in hell" work.
22:04:41 <Herkamire> they are popular
22:04:45 <kc5tja> And Bush *already* exhibits *strong* Fascist tendencies and has implemented at least two Fascist laws (Patriot and Patriot II).
22:05:07 <rO|> same facts of mainstream history are only the half truth, the imagination about however is completely wrong
22:05:16 <synova> but catholicism is coming to pieces as we speak
22:05:19 <rO|> s/same/some/
22:05:36 <synova> r0: history is construed fiction for the ruling class
22:05:38 <synova> that's all
22:05:42 <synova> that is why they teach it in school
22:06:04 <synova> you can't buy the rhetoric about history repeating itself, because as long as we aren't learning real history
22:06:11 <synova> it will basically happen, if you believe that kind of thing
22:06:17 <synova> (I don't, personally.)
22:06:40 <synova> religion, as kc5 pointed out, was ignored for its positive principles
22:06:56 <synova> and only exploited for purposes of control
22:07:06 <synova> in a sense, there never was a separation of church and state
22:07:21 <Herkamire> I didn't see kc5tja say that
22:07:31 <kc5tja> Or, more accurately, there wasn't after the first 75 years of this nation's existance.
22:07:32 <synova> when you realize that Bush, is as much a representative of science as he is religion (or non-religion, as true Masons are), then it begins to key together
22:07:50 <synova> herk: you're right. he said he avoided it for its brainwashing effect.
22:08:01 <synova> sorry. I quoted him in the wrong sentence. +0
22:08:11 <warpzero> hey guys
22:08:15 <warpzero> how do i netboot linux
22:08:18 <Herkamire> I don't know the history too well, but the seperation of church and state was never complete as far as I can see. AFAIK it has always said "in god we trust" on the money
22:08:41 <kc5tja> warpzero: If it's not Debian, I don't know.  It usually is distro specific, I think, since it dpeends on the package manager in use.
22:08:42 <synova> herk: as it is, US money is handled by a private corporation.
22:08:49 <synova> (called the Federal Reserve)
22:09:00 <warpzero> kc5tja: uh! how would it depend on that?
22:09:01 <synova> I never intended to go off on this ugly tangent
22:09:07 <synova> all I wanted to say is
22:09:18 <synova> if it really is bad and terrible to make progress on your life as it seems
22:09:27 <synova> I'm betting you that is it is a temporary inconvenience
22:09:34 <synova> not a omen of things to come
22:09:45 <synova> of = for
22:10:12 <Herkamire> who said anything about personal progress being bad?
22:10:12 <kc5tja> warpzero: Unless you want to manually download a ton of source files, untar them, compile them, and make install them, you are dependent on some kind of package manager.  See "Linux From Scratch" (http://www.linuxfromscratch.org) for more details.
22:10:39 <Herkamire> I was just saying that I want to make the world a better place
22:10:39 <synova> herk: kc5 was expressing a dire hopelessness.
22:10:47 <synova> if he doesn't think he can forward with his project, he can't
22:11:07 <synova> he doesn't seem to realize that dumb jerkoffs get far, not just because of "connections" with family or associates
22:11:19 <kc5tja> I am, and still am, expressing hopelessness, purely on the objective observations of my past performance with managing several different projects, none of which have come to fruition.
22:11:24 <synova> but because they refuse to have their resolve and ambition and confidence beaten down by unexpected delays and failures
22:11:33 <synova> that is the large different between the working and ruling classes
22:11:41 <synova> the working classes have come to *expect* mediocrity
22:11:49 <Herkamire> yeah
22:11:50 <synova> while the ruling classes have come to *expect* success
22:11:57 <Herkamire> right. I've read all that
22:12:01 <Herkamire> attitude is everything
22:12:04 <synova> it really is.
22:12:13 <Herkamire> kc5tja: what were the goals of the projects?
22:12:15 <kc5tja> Well, then I'm doomed to mediocrity then.
22:12:38 <kc5tja> Herkamire: How to put this?  Linux is to servers as Dolphin is to the desktop.
22:12:44 <synova> and I'm saying with something so keen like kc5 or yourself, you can't blame anyone but yourself...but you also can't give credit to anyone but yourself
22:12:55 <synova> you are truly a master of your own fate, and you have to know that it will happen.
22:13:09 <Herkamire> kc5tja: so "fruition" means massively popular?
22:13:12 <synova> kc5: I don't know you. But, I hope you change your mind.
22:13:22 <synova> I don't think you need to accept mediocrity.
22:13:24 <kc5tja> synova: What I'm saying is, I don't believe it's purely in the head of the individual.  If it is, then I have a mental illness.
22:13:50 <synova> kc5: I'm saying that you haven't ever truly tested that it ever was in the head of the individual.
22:13:51 <kc5tja> Herkamire: Filling a niche AND being accepted.
22:13:58 <warpzero> kc5tja: netbooting?
22:14:04 <synova> why else do pharmaceuticals do placebo testing?
22:14:06 <warpzero> kc5tja: i am so confused
22:14:20 <kc5tja> warpzero: I don't understand what you mean by netbooting then.  In which case, I can't answer your question.
22:14:22 <Herkamire> warpzero: it depends on your architecture, bootloder and distro
22:14:52 <synova> kc5: the concept of mental illness is a fad, too.
22:14:55 <warpzero> Herkamire: why does distro matter though
22:15:13 <synova> its a western concept to shun away problems as representative of a small minority, rather than a society as a whole
22:15:19 <kc5tja> synova: I have undertaken several open source initiatives in the past.  None of them succeeded.  Not a one.  Every one petered out before even coming to the point where we had a working prototype.
22:15:25 <warpzero> kc5tja: booting a computer without a hdd
22:15:29 <synova> and neither definition of mental illness applies in your case.
22:15:33 <warpzero> kc5tja: linux
22:15:39 <kc5tja> warpzero: Oh, ... no experience what-so-ever with that.  Sorry.
22:15:57 <warpzero> okay
22:16:02 <Herkamire> warpzero: maybe distro doesn't matter. I thought kc5tja said it did
22:16:11 <synova> kc5: did you expect it to take off by itself when you even you won't give yourself the life you deserve?
22:16:17 <Herkamire> warpzero: with no hd it's probably mostly an issue of your bios
22:16:23 <synova> (how can the project the get the needed boost, then?)
22:16:31 <Herkamire> warpzero: I know basically how it works on my mac
22:16:31 <kc5tja> synova: I put a lot of hard work in Dolphin.  And nothing ever came of it.
22:16:43 <warpzero> Herkamire: yeah i have all of that working, i just don't know what to send the computer [the boot file option thing]
22:16:53 <kc5tja> Just like I put a lot of hard work in CUT.  CUT is technologically superior to other C unit testing packages.  But guess how many people downloaded it?  12.  Maybe.
22:17:05 <synova> kc5: traditional concept of work. hours. days. weeks. years. all these concepts of work only help you affirm to yourself that you actually "did" something you should be "proud" and confident about
22:17:06 <kc5tja> (and yes, CUT *is* on Freshmeat)
22:17:21 <Herkamire> warpzero: no idea. you should find a detailed tutorial
22:17:23 <synova> you can save yourself the trouble and go forward without writing a line of code
22:17:31 <synova> but you need to sell other people the dream, too.
22:17:31 <rO|> warpzero: booting from the nic?
22:17:35 <warpzero> Herkamire: TLDPing
22:17:39 <warpzero> rO|: yeah
22:17:44 <kc5tja> synova: I had a lot of other people sold on it.  At one point.
22:17:52 <kc5tja> But then, as time moved on, Linux overcame every salient point.
22:18:04 <kc5tja> Or Windows.
22:18:11 <warpzero> hmm
22:18:15 <warpzero> this guide is really out of date
22:18:17 <rO|> warpzero: is it a pxe nic bios?
22:18:47 <kc5tja> synova: So if I undertake Dolphin development now, as with all my *current* projects (Kestrel included), it is primarily to satisfy me, without any regard what-so-ever to anyone else.
22:18:47 <synova> kc5: Linux was very representative of a "thirst" by a significant amount of the computer-using population
22:19:02 <warpzero> rO|: yea
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22:19:18 <Herkamire> warpzero: TLDPing?
22:19:19 <kc5tja> synova: But like any market, regardless of price, only three "products" can really fill any given market space and expect to survive.
22:19:26 <synova> kc5: let us say you've built that project.
22:19:31 <synova> it is all together.
22:19:34 <synova> what then?
22:19:38 <kc5tja> Indeed, what then?
22:19:41 <rO|> warpzero: what type of boot server?
22:19:44 <synova> I'm asking you.
22:19:45 <synova> =)
22:19:50 <kc5tja> What then?
22:19:50 <warpzero> Herkamire: The Linux Documentation Project
22:19:58 <kc5tja> No, YOU tell ME.  Are YOU going to use it?
22:20:04 <warpzero> rO|: one with an ethernet card?
22:20:04 <kc5tja> If so, what aspect of Dolphin interests you?
22:20:13 <kc5tja> What can I do to make Dolphin better?
22:20:14 <kc5tja> etc.
22:20:24 <kc5tja> Dolphin would, theoretically, already be the perfect OS for my needs at the time.
22:20:33 <synova> kc5: I'm not a product incubator. But, YOU are.
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22:20:42 <kc5tja> You're avoiding the question.
22:20:46 <synova> I'm saying that your unique perspective WILL interest people.
22:20:51 <kc5tja> You already stipulated that Dolphin was finished.
22:20:53 <kc5tja> It's out there.
22:20:55 <kc5tja> It's on Freshmeat.
22:21:03 <kc5tja> People know about it.
22:21:07 <synova> well, I ask that because what do you see yourself doing?
22:21:07 <kc5tja> Then you ask me, "what then?"
22:21:11 <synova> don't worry worry about everyone else
22:21:19 <rO|> warpzero: client box w/ pxe nic + boot server, serving the OS image
22:21:31 <warpzero> yeah
22:21:33 <warpzero> like
22:21:39 <synova> let us say you build the project. what do you hope to achieve with it, beside the mental exercise?
22:21:40 <warpzero> how the f*** do i make an oS image
22:21:46 <warpzero> i have the bootp stuff all working
22:21:51 <kc5tja> synova: Probably the same thing I am doing now -- programming, text editing, IRCing, web browsing, etc.
22:21:59 <kc5tja> All the stuff I do on Linux, perfectly well enough as it is, right now.
22:22:00 <Herkamire> I think dolphin is dead because kc5tja is not using it
22:22:14 <Herkamire> and colorforth is alive primarily because chuck is using it
22:22:31 <synova> kc5: do you not want a better life for yourself?
22:22:32 <warpzero> what is "dolphin"
22:22:37 <synova> have you given up on that?
22:22:49 <kc5tja> synova: Sure I do.  But I don't see how Dolphin would make my life "better" than it already is.
22:22:57 <synova> is life meaningless enough that you've decided that programming, as an activity in itself, is enough?
22:23:11 <synova> kc5: well, when many people start businesses
22:23:15 <synova> they do so to make money
22:23:20 <kc5tja> synova: Since I was a kid, programming has always been an activity in itself.
22:23:22 <synova> so they can make a better life for themselves
22:23:25 <synova> or at least, dream they will
22:23:26 <rO|> warpzero: a nice start would be with knoppix, OS image etc. all ready.. imho
22:24:02 <warpzero> rO|: no i mean i have that too
22:24:03 <kc5tja> synova: Dolphin, as an open source product, wouldn't be ready for commercial distribution for YEARS after it is introduced.
22:24:04 <synova> kc5: not to be cynical, you've saved yourself the hardship of bringing the product to market, because you're already doing what you endeavored to do.
22:24:14 <warpzero> rO|: i just don't know how to send it a kernel
22:24:16 <synova> programming, irc, etc.
22:24:39 <kc5tja> synova: And it'd involve resources that I just plain lack.
22:24:48 <rO|> Herkamire: bout c4th. or because wisdom is contained within.. ;-)
22:25:03 <kc5tja> synova: Linus Torvalds did nothing to bring Linux to market.  It's not ubigitous.
22:25:07 <kc5tja> s/not/now
22:25:26 <synova> synova: ignore Linus. he was a social "victim" in a sense.
22:25:37 <synova> in a way, all decisions were objectively taken out of his hands
22:25:52 <rO|> warpzero: your bootd is up?
22:26:03 <kc5tja> synova: So what are you proposing?
22:26:05 <Herkamire> rO|: it's wisdom is it's primary value in my mind. but value isn't what I meant when I was talking dead/alive. when I say a project is dead, I don't mean that it is useless, but that it is not progressing
22:26:10 <synova> something about his Linux, and his interaction with others, satiated a growing thirst
22:26:11 <warpzero> yeah but my tftpd isn't
22:26:38 <synova> kc5: I'm saying that there has to be more meaning to what you are doing
22:26:40 <rO|> warpzero: we're coming closer.. ;-)
22:26:41 <kc5tja> synova: Yes, it filled a niche -- a truely free Unix implementation that was truely independent.
22:27:03 <synova> kc5: right. he didn't have to do anything, because everyone already had an idea of what *they* wanted out of Linux
22:27:08 <synova> it simply expanded into that niche
22:27:11 <warpzero> rO|: but yeah but that still doesn't answer what do i have the tftpd/bootd send to the system
22:27:20 <synova> that's unique, and not necessarily desireable in my opinion
22:27:33 <kc5tja> I think it very much so is.
22:27:34 <synova> because Linux probably would have gone on without Torvals guideance or input
22:27:54 <kc5tja> I want to know that the fruits of my labor benefits humanity in general.
22:27:57 <synova> and if you are an artist, I think that is a dreadful place to be in
22:28:36 <kc5tja> Linus has total control over Linux.  He simply surrenders that control as often as he can.
22:28:46 <synova> kc5: they can. but, your labor has to be an "enabler" for others to do more than they could before they came upon you or your "stuff"
22:28:58 <rO|> kc5tja: do the best you can and enjoy :-)
22:29:14 <synova> kc5: Linus has less control than you think.
22:29:18 <synova> I *dare* him to step out now
22:29:19 <kc5tja> Exactly, and that's the problem: There is *NOTHING* new in Dolphin that would be so overwhelmingly compelling to make someone switch their Linux desktop to a Dolphin desktop.
22:29:28 <synova> it doesn't have to new
22:29:32 <synova> it just has to be well-placed
22:29:37 <synova> Linux was NOT new
22:30:04 <synova> it was a reimplementation of an education reimplementation of a twenty-year old system (at the time)
22:30:11 <synova> educational, rather
22:30:22 <kc5tja> Sure.
22:30:28 <kc5tja> Not claiming that it was new.
22:30:41 <kc5tja> But again, it filled a niche, it had a compelling offering.
22:30:44 <rO|> warpzero: ok. the tftpd is up?
22:30:50 <synova> interestingly, Chuck doesn't really tout his stuff being all that new, either.
22:31:02 <kc5tja> synova: He does for ColorForth.
22:31:12 <synova> in a *sense*
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22:31:19 <kc5tja> He's constantly complaining about how ANSI-ites are still stuck with 30-year old technology.
22:31:30 <synova> and I think that new claim came about after he realized how far "out" beyond others he was.
22:31:45 <kc5tja> Perhaps.
22:31:45 <synova> he never used to have a good grasp of how unique his perspective is
22:31:48 <synova> and still doesn't.
22:31:55 <synova> but, he might be getting a better idea
22:31:57 <kc5tja> Not being Chuck, I won't argue yay or nay.
22:32:25 <synova> even Chuck has asked people if he was just being silly and playing with 70's technology
22:32:29 <synova> (lack of OpenGL, and the like.)
22:32:37 <synova> he's a man plagued with doubt about his own ability
22:33:00 <kc5tja> Yes, he's got more doubt about himself than I do of me, and yet he's way more famous. :)
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22:33:04 <synova> and that is why his colorForth and chips have not done well
22:33:17 <rO|> hmmm
22:33:23 <synova> kc5: well, I would say you have more doubt
22:33:46 <synova> he had enough respect for himself to keep putting himself out there, and not worry where his work was going each time some company blasted him about it
22:33:48 <warpzero> wehoops
22:33:49 <synova> or people made fun of him
22:33:50 <warpzero> my client crashed
22:33:52 <warpzero> rO|: no i am trying to figure out how to add tftpd to xinetd
22:34:18 <synova> for someone so well-known and respected, I agree that is remarkable how much doubt he has though
22:34:29 <rO|> warpzero: ok. /etc/inetd.conf
22:34:34 <synova> it shows you that being rich or famous won't necessarily change your life for the better in itself.
22:34:46 <kc5tja> Nope.
22:34:51 <kc5tja> All I want is to be comfortable.
22:34:58 <kc5tja> Too much money, and you draw attention to yourself.
22:35:01 <kc5tja> (The bad kind.)
22:35:08 <rO|> warpzero: usually just uncommenting the tftpd line...
22:35:26 <synova> kc5: well, if comfortable is enough for you, then that should be easy for someone like you.
22:35:28 <warpzero> rO|: its xinetd not inetd
22:36:13 <kc5tja> synova: I am a true capitalist.  I do not believe in hoarding wealth beyond my imagination.  I do not want to be a monopoly, because if I did, nobody would have any cash to buy my products.
22:36:16 <synova> let me guess.
22:36:22 <synova> you work a shit job just to scrape by.
22:36:41 <synova> you have some debt. not too much, but enough to scare you a little.
22:36:47 <rO|> warpzero: /etc/xinetd.conf ? /etc/xinetd/config ? inetd should suffice also, no?
22:36:51 <kc5tja> synova: Only because of the economic state.  Prior to that, I was a semiconductor verification technician at Hifn, Inc., and before that, I ran two ISPs.
22:37:14 <synova> impressive resume.
22:37:31 <kc5tja> synova: Yup.  You have me nailed -- about $2K in debt, and zero interest in getting any more in debt.
22:37:43 <kc5tja> Debt almost took the home of my parents.  I want nothing to do with debt.
22:38:13 <synova> well, then realize that you inherited your parents' sense of money.
22:38:21 <warpzero> rO|: i dont know what to put in xinetd.conf!
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22:38:30 <synova> you don't have to repeat their mistakes
22:38:37 <synova> but you do have to address how you view money.
22:38:48 <kc5tja> Though I'll be back in the ISP `business' as an entry-level Linux technical support position in about a week.  Not terribly good pay to start ($10/hr), but I am confident I'll be advancing no less than six months.
22:39:00 <rO|> warpzero: what OS?
22:39:06 <synova> believe it or not, you can learn a lot by watching real rich people. and how they don't worry how or where their money is coming from.
22:39:10 <warpzero> Gentoo Linux
22:39:37 <synova> kc5: absolutely. but you want to be independent.
22:39:53 <kc5tja> synova: Of course.  But they always worry about where their money is going TO, and that's the crux of the problem.  I have basic living expenses, as do my parents.  If for some reason, INFLOW < OUTFLOW, bad things happen.
22:40:04 <synova> you clearly have enormous talent and ambition. honestly, I don't know why it you are content to browse the web, program, irc, etc.
22:40:23 <kc5tja> synova: Because I get burnt out.  Like I said.
22:40:31 <synova> its contradictory to want to change the world with your labor, but want to do nothing when everything is said and done.
22:40:33 <kc5tja> It's happened to me before, on multiple occasions.
22:40:50 <synova> I bet you burn yourself out because you are at cross-purposes with yourself.
22:40:55 <Herkamire> synova: I like programming. and so does kc5tja 
22:41:00 <synova> I'm willing to bet for every step forward, you'll find a way to make it a step back.
22:41:28 <synova> herk: nothing wrong with programming. I'm saying he doesn't see himself any better off, even if he pulls a project together like he so desperately wants to.
22:41:39 <kc5tja> synova: I just get bored with things.  My FTS/Forth -- I haven't worked on that in about 5 months now.  Why?  No particular reason.  Working on it doesn't interest me right now.
22:41:39 <synova> its like his dream just stops.
22:41:41 <synova> right there.
22:41:43 <synova> no further.
22:41:49 <synova> same ol' kc5tja...
22:41:59 <synova> just with dolphin, or fts/forth, or whatever.
22:42:22 <synova> and I think he can do *so* much better than that
22:42:22 <Herkamire> kc5tja: I'm very suprized you said you aren't programming new things
22:42:39 <synova> synova: a person like you doesn't get bored without a reason.
22:42:47 <synova> are you making "busy" projects for yourself?
22:42:51 <Herkamire> sure. kc5tja is brilliant from what I can see
22:42:51 <synova> (just a question.)
22:43:01 <kc5tja> "Busy" projects?  Define.
22:43:06 <Herkamire> it takes more than smarts to succeed though
22:43:32 <synova> well, some people create projects, especially ones that will seem to keep them busy for years, because it prevents them from meeting all the bad thoughts they have about themselves every day
22:43:35 <Herkamire> you need a purpose. at least one plan, and goals goals goals
22:43:37 <synova> without "busy work"
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22:44:00 <synova> some people just stew in their own juices...and literally eat themselves alive without some kind of outlet.
22:44:10 <synova> I'm not saying you are such a person, but I'm asking?
22:44:16 <synova> ( a personal question, I know.)
22:44:18 <kc5tja> I can't answer that.
22:44:22 <kc5tja> I have no answer.
22:44:31 <kc5tja> Again, it would take an outside observer to watch me day by day.
22:44:46 <synova> you put too much power/responsibility in other people's hands
22:44:52 <synova> it may seem like other people's money
22:44:52 <kc5tja> No.
22:44:54 <kc5tja> I don't.
22:45:01 <synova> but really your attitude right now does not attract money
22:45:07 <Herkamire> kc5tja: I don't think he's going for an objective view, but what you think of yourself.
22:45:08 <synova> sure.
22:45:20 <kc5tja> I have no thought of myself one way or another.
22:45:20 <Serg> synova is right LIKE HELL 
22:45:20 <synova> herk: thank you =)
22:45:35 * synova shrugs
22:45:46 <kc5tja> I am sorry to disappoint you.  :(
22:45:56 <synova> kc5: you don't disappoint me.
22:45:59 <synova> you disappoint yourself.
22:46:05 <kc5tja> Cliche -- i knew it was coming.
22:46:06 <synova> you've buried your anguish so deep, I bet.
22:46:17 <Serg> i mean not kc5tja personally, but general view
22:46:29 <synova> you can't stand to feel in some ways anymore
22:46:34 <kc5tja> Look, I've been told all these things for decades.
22:46:41 <kc5tja> When I was 10, when I was 20, and now.
22:46:49 <synova> kc5: what is your objection to them?
22:46:53 <kc5tja> I am what I am.
22:46:56 <synova> the things you've been told
22:46:58 <synova> why?
22:47:06 <synova> you are not so inflexible
22:47:13 <synova> you may seem *screwed*
22:47:21 <synova> and that you came into the world in a fucked up place
22:47:25 <kc5tja> Because every time I've tried changing things for the better, *EVERY* time, I'd just go back to being the same ol' KC5TJA, as you say.
22:47:29 <kc5tja> Every time.
22:47:29 <synova> while untalented jerks seem to make it time and time again.
22:47:38 <kc5tja> Like everything else in my life, I get burnt out.
22:47:42 <Herkamire> you can change who you are. it's called "personal growth"
22:47:45 <synova> kc5: you are fighting yourself.
22:47:50 <synova> that's all I'm saying
22:47:51 <kc5tja> Herkamire: Then I have personal growth disorder.
22:48:03 <Herkamire> there are tons of books on the subject. most of them pretty useless
22:48:06 <Serg> synova: apprisal of other may hurt him !
22:48:48 <synova> serg: indeed. :P
22:48:55 <kc5tja> Indeed, talent implies the right mind-set and mental agility.  Clearly it's not something I have; ergo, it is *I* who is the untalented one.
22:49:04 <synova> herk: its true. but I'm convinced there is validity in the core principles of these ideas
22:49:15 <Serg> kc5tja: please never devaluate self
22:49:24 <kc5tja> Serg: Just being objective.  And logical.
22:49:29 <synova> that it doesn't have to be bullshit "I love myself even when I don't" kind of stuff.
22:49:51 <synova> kc5: actually, you are not being objective or logical
22:50:00 <synova> clearly you've earned the respect of your peers
22:50:04 <Herkamire> synova: you've got a bunch of good principles
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22:50:21 <synova> people actually, for what it probably isn't worth, care enough to compliment your mind
22:50:33 <kc5tja> And I thank them for that.
22:50:44 <synova> kc5: and you don't see an ounce of what they see in yourself?
22:50:55 <synova> herk: only time will tell, I guess
22:50:58 <kc5tja> What do they see in me?
22:51:11 <synova> they just told you
22:51:16 <kc5tja> No they didn't.
22:51:22 <kc5tja> They said I was intelligent.
22:51:25 <synova> its as obvious as looking at the text on our screen (or at least, in some of the logs)
22:51:26 <kc5tja> I agree with them.
22:51:34 <kc5tja> Nobody has told me I'd be rich.
22:51:35 <synova> they said you were talented
22:51:39 <synova> brilliant, I believe.
22:51:43 <kc5tja> Nobody has told me I'd be in a position of power.
22:51:51 <kc5tja> Nobody has told me I'd make anyone's day for anything.
22:51:52 <synova> kc5: maybe they are being realistic, given your current position.
22:51:52 <kc5tja> Not a one.
22:52:22 <synova> kc5: maybe its about you, and not about making destiny about something just out of your reach each and every time.
22:52:23 <Herkamire> kc5tja: power and money come from a good attitude, goals, and the sort of principles synova is talking about.
22:52:47 <kc5tja> I've tried adopting such good attitudes before.
22:52:47 <synova> you'll make a project so big and ambitious, you'll never do it
22:52:50 <synova> its so outside of you
22:52:52 <kc5tja> And it hasn't worked.
22:52:55 <kc5tja> It hasn't stuck.
22:52:55 <synova> you've guaranteed failure
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22:53:05 <kc5tja> And it hasn't delivered except an even HEIGHTENED sense of failure.
22:53:06 <synova> and boy, its comforting to be right about at least *one* thing in your life
22:53:12 <synova> that you will fail.
22:53:32 <Herkamire> synova: yeah :) you can always come back to that :)
22:53:33 <synova> kc5: it didn't stick, because you didn't really believe any of that positive shit you told yourself
22:53:48 <synova> herk: the one universal constant =)
22:53:57 <kc5tja> synova: Then there's the fundamental problem.
22:54:17 <kc5tja> No amount of talking about it is going to change it.  Something has to *happen* to me to change something so fundamental.  Something tangible.
22:54:18 <synova> kc5: you keep saying "there's something wrong with me", "I can't be helped", etc.
22:54:28 <synova> if you didn't think you had at least some potential, you wouldn't be here bitching with me about it
22:54:47 <kc5tja> I know I have potential.
22:54:48 <Herkamire> :) :)
22:54:54 <kc5tja> What I don't have is that OTHER thing you need to succeed.
22:55:09 <kc5tja> That so many other "self-help" books talk about.
22:55:38 <synova> kc5: that is?
22:55:39 <Herkamire> I can recomend a good book if you're interested
22:55:43 <Herkamire> "think and grow rich"
22:55:50 <kc5tja> Herkamire: Read it.  Didn't do a thing for me.
22:56:05 <kc5tja> Perseverance(sp?), largely because I get burnt out.  As usual.
22:56:11 <Herkamire> what were you expecting it would do?
22:56:12 <kc5tja> Things get boring, things get to be a chore.
22:56:30 <kc5tja> Herkamire: At least give me hope.
22:57:02 <synova> kc5: what kind of tangible things would make it clear to you that you were born to succeed?
22:57:12 <kc5tja> synova: Success.
22:57:18 <synova> that's not tangible.
22:57:26 <synova> now that is avoiding the question. :-)
22:57:28 <Herkamire> kc5tja: oh. :) what sorts of things give you hope?
22:57:49 <kc5tja> Herkamire: Things that don't depress me beyond hope.
22:58:07 <Herkamire> eg...
22:58:11 <Robert> I wish you luck with the therapy, I'm going to the physics test now. Bye
22:58:12 <synova> you've made your life into a mobius strip
22:58:23 <kc5tja> synova: Success is measurable, depending on various criteria.  For example, you could get a larger income, you can get a larger network of people you can talk to to get things done, etc.
22:59:08 <Herkamire> I disagree
22:59:08 <synova> but, all the factors you've mentioned require other people's involvement
22:59:17 <kc5tja> Yes.
22:59:18 <Herkamire> I think success is an attitude
22:59:28 <Herkamire> or a decision even
22:59:34 <synova> do you not think that without their approval, you can't move forward?
22:59:40 <kc5tja> And in Think and Grow Rich, in big letters in places, it clearly states, "Do not underestimate the power of the meta-mind!".
22:59:50 <kc5tja> The Meta-mind refering, directly, to the network of people you have surrounding you.
22:59:55 <synova> kc5: I have to say, that even I'm confused by that one.
22:59:59 <synova> :D
23:00:13 <synova> oh, ok.
23:00:17 <synova> but I don't believe that
23:00:19 <Herkamire> I don't remember that. maybe I should read it again :)
23:00:33 <kc5tja> I quoted it because Herkamire and SDO both recommended the book.
23:00:37 <synova> I think it helps to have people around you who believe in your talent
23:00:42 <synova> you have that
23:00:45 <Herkamire> sure
23:00:51 <synova> the problem is, many of these people are in the same position  you are in.
23:01:02 <Herkamire> my problem is I know the principles pretty well in my head.
23:01:09 <Herkamire> I am slowly incorpretating them into myself.
23:01:25 <Herkamire> but I still don't know how to help other people incorperate them
23:01:40 <synova> herk: you can't force them to accept what they won't accept.
23:02:00 <synova> accept maybe when you are a small child, I'm utterly convinced people have free will
23:02:00 <Herkamire> here's my success example
23:02:08 <synova> even if they are willing to forfeit that will to others
23:02:23 <synova> and allow others to take what they rightfully deserve, or step on their face each day (as often happens)
23:02:35 <Herkamire> I don't have much money, or many friends
23:02:43 <Herkamire> but I consider myself to be very successful
23:03:04 <Herkamire> which basically means I'm happy with where I'm at and where I'm going
23:03:14 <Herkamire> I'm getting what I want
23:03:16 <synova> herk: if you *truly* happy where you are, and not simply learned to accept the point you've progressed
23:03:19 <synova> I'm envious
23:03:25 <Herkamire> success is acheaving your goals
23:03:30 <Herkamire> which I'm doing.
23:03:47 <Herkamire> success doesn't mean you've achieved a bunch of goals before, but that you are actively acheaving them
23:04:03 <synova> rich and famous people so often don't feel they've achived anything, so clearly social clout and wealth has nothing to do with success.
23:04:17 <synova> well, I think that is a mistake do make, as you infer
23:04:22 <Herkamire> success is an attitude
23:04:24 <synova> you are in a constant state of improving yourself
23:04:33 <synova> you don't become "perfect" and stop improving
23:04:38 <Herkamire> nope
23:04:40 <synova> (and I'd find that very scary, if that were true)
23:04:46 <Herkamire> and I don't have all the stuff I want
23:04:54 <kc5tja> Of course, I understand that.
23:05:09 <Herkamire> I feel stupid saying this stuff
23:05:11 <kc5tja> But I haven't achieved any of my goals.  
23:05:26 <kc5tja> I literally found myself incapable of achieving them.
23:05:27 <synova> herk: a lot of very sound advice has been made into a joke over the years
23:05:34 <Herkamire> it seems to obvious mostly. just spouting principles doesn't get people to internalize them.
23:05:37 <synova> sometimes "believing in yourself" is all there is
23:05:48 <Herkamire> some of them are starting to sink in though. and they start makeing more and more sense
23:05:54 <synova> and most people are so firmly convinced of the polyanna/naive aspect of it, that they fundamentally don't believe it
23:06:32 <Herkamire> self improvement is a way of life
23:06:41 <Herkamire> it's not something you need to do for a while
23:06:45 <synova> sure. but that puts a therapists spin on it
23:06:48 <Herkamire> it's something you can do your whole life
23:06:54 <Herkamire> no
23:07:02 <Herkamire> I don't think much of therapists
23:07:04 <synova> to say "I'm getting better each day", under the presumption that something is *wrong* with you
23:07:11 <synova> and that really isn;t the case
23:07:17 <Herkamire> but mostly because of what many famous NLP people say
23:07:27 <kc5tja> But if that isn't the case, why are we here discussing this?
23:07:28 <Herkamire> I don't know any therapists well
23:07:31 <synova> what I propose is that if kc5 decides to feel again sometime soon (*crosses fingers*)
23:07:48 <synova> he will realize, that through his ideas of himself, and relationship with others/world, etfc.
23:07:58 <Herkamire> feel again?
23:08:04 <synova> that he has actually materialized everything he has ever concentrated upon
23:08:31 <synova> herk: well, he says he doesn't feel anything about himself.
23:08:48 <kc5tja> I never have.
23:08:52 <kc5tja> Since as early as I can remember.
23:08:53 <synova> no one fails to feel., you've simply grown accustomed to hiding the obvious from yourself.
23:08:55 <Herkamire> kc5tja: we're discussing this in hopes of sharing valuable knowledge/skills
23:09:01 <synova> kc5: that is how it becomes a habit
23:09:08 <synova> (usually when you're young.)
23:09:28 <kc5tja> I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall.
23:09:30 <synova> (when you are less than equipped to deal with the stupid people around you spouting all sorts of negative ideas about your self image)
23:09:32 <kc5tja> I'm sorry, but I really am.
23:09:48 <synova> kc5: I was about to say the same thing. =)
23:09:59 <kc5tja> Then I'll cease.
23:10:08 <Herkamire> kc5tja: what? talking to us is like a brick wall?
23:10:11 <synova> you don't have to do that.
23:10:31 <kc5tja> Herkamire: This discussion is going in circles.
23:11:12 <Herkamire> kc5tja: I was thinking this probably got annoying for you some time ago
23:11:22 <kc5tja> It's my fault for not believing in myself, but that fault occurs early on in childhood.  I try to fix it throughout my life, because yes, I *KNOW* there is a problem, but nothing *EVER* works.  But yet, it's still my fault for not believing in myself, etc. etc. etc.
23:11:41 <Herkamire> right
23:11:50 <kc5tja> Well, I am through with it.
23:11:54 <kc5tja> I'm done.
23:11:57 <Herkamire> the whole paradigm is a shit hole
23:11:58 <kc5tja> Yes, I'm a quitter.
23:11:59 <kc5tja> Deal with it.
23:12:11 <synova> I dare you to open yourself to the possibility of making inroads
23:12:25 <kc5tja> synova: Forgive me for yelling...but I have to vent.
23:12:33 <synova> kc5: please do.
23:12:37 <kc5tja> I'VE BEEN TRYING FOR THE LAST 25 YEARS OF MY COGNIZANT LIFE TO MAKE INROADS!!!
23:12:47 <Herkamire> synova: oh, let him stue
23:12:50 <Herkamire> stew
23:13:00 <synova> frankly, I'm amazed you have talked to me as long as you have
23:13:01 <kc5tja> When I sit here and say, over and over again, that nothing has helped, I mean every freakin' doggone word of it!
23:13:19 <synova> herk: no. I think expression is the best thing he can do.
23:13:20 <kc5tja> You think *I* am happy about this?
23:13:21 <Herkamire> I believe you
23:13:26 <synova> I don't think he should stew
23:13:33 <Herkamire> sure he should
23:13:36 <synova> I think stewing, especially in silence is pretty fucking bad
23:13:51 <synova> you just run the same mindblowing (literally) logic over and over
23:13:57 <synova> and literally BURN yourself out
23:14:06 <Herkamire> yup.
23:14:09 <kc5tja> I've talked to a variety of people on this.
23:14:11 <synova> I think he has stewed, and that may be part of his problem
23:14:14 <Herkamire> until you get sick of it and do something else
23:14:21 <synova> kc5: people? as in "therapists"?
23:14:24 <kc5tja> You, SDO, my parents, my grandparents, my aunts, uncles, 
23:14:26 <synova> (I hope not.)
23:14:28 <kc5tja> No, no therapists.
23:14:37 <synova> your family won't help you.
23:14:38 <kc5tja> I patently do not believe in them, and *refuse* to seek their "guidance."
23:14:53 <synova> actually, in many cases, your family likes you just theplace you are
23:14:54 <kc5tja> No, but they see me in a light that I can't see myself in.
23:14:58 <synova> sometimes when you are trying to improve yourself
23:15:14 <synova> your family or significant others seem to be the first ones to sabotage your progress to some extent
23:15:22 <synova> kc5: maybe not.
23:15:25 <kc5tja> Mmmm...no, I disagree.
23:15:31 <rO|> kc5tja: keep on searching ;-) in my experience, it's worth it. yes, might take some decades. you know when you found it.
23:15:31 <kc5tja> My parents have done nothing to sabotage me.
23:15:44 <synova> you give other people too much omnipotence over judgingyour character
23:15:52 <synova> kc5: but, in a sense, they've done nothing to help you
23:15:56 <synova> (even if that were true)
23:16:01 <synova> you wouldn't be here like this
23:16:03 <Herkamire> synova: stop telling him that various things are wrong with hem
23:16:14 <synova> if they had actually helped you
23:16:15 <Herkamire> it's not about that
23:16:16 <kc5tja> synova: As a kid, I refused a lot of "help" from others.
23:16:18 <Herkamire> there's nothing wrong with us
23:16:22 <Herkamire> we're just people.
23:16:27 <Herkamire> we do things and feel things
23:16:30 <kc5tja> I was "wrong" from the time they cut the cable on me.
23:16:31 <Herkamire> free  will and all that
23:16:35 <synova> herk: no. I am not suggesting there is anything wrong with anyone
23:16:52 <synova> I am suggesting he needs better influences than people who really won't see him any way than the way they knew him
23:16:53 <Herkamire> < synova> you give other people too much omnipotence over judgingyour character
23:16:55 <synova> each time he changes
23:17:02 <rO|> kc5tja: cut the cable?
23:17:04 <synova> they'll just see kc5 they way he visisted/talked to them last time
23:17:09 <kc5tja> rO|: Cut the umbilical cord.
23:17:17 <synova> kc5: bullshit.
23:17:27 <Herkamire> he doesn't "need" that stuff.
23:17:27 <synova> each time you do something new
23:17:37 <synova> even if they don't want to hurt you
23:17:42 <synova> they don't give you the credit they deserve
23:17:49 <synova> in a way they've stopped analyzing who you are
23:17:56 <rO|> kc5tja: ic, didn't grasp that irony that fast..
23:17:59 <synova> and just accepted you for what aspect of you they've seen (or assumed they've seen)
23:18:07 <Herkamire> synova: how do you know his parents don't have it right?
23:18:33 <synova> herk: look at him? why does he not have confidence?
23:18:42 <synova> good parents teach confidence in the face of what the rest of society does
23:18:44 <synova> fuck grades
23:18:51 <synova> buying a car or sending them to college
23:18:58 <synova> you can be a poor SOB, and never buy them a thing
23:19:02 <Herkamire> it doesn't always work
23:19:04 <synova> and if you give them unbreakable confidence
23:19:05 <Herkamire> good parents try
23:19:11 <synova> herk: you're right.
23:19:17 <Herkamire> you can't give confidence
23:19:19 <synova> and try goes a lot further than "not at all"
23:19:20 <kc5tja> I never had any grades, never had a car until I moved out here, this is the fourth (yes, the fourth) time I've dropped out of college due to expenses, . . . 
23:19:32 <synova> and I suspect "not at all" may be the case.
23:19:32 <Herkamire> well sometimes you can I guess.
23:19:45 <synova> no one who "tries" leaves their children feeling this desperate
23:19:49 <kc5tja> Everything I have I own, earned with my own efforts.
23:20:02 <synova> kc5: great parents. :P
23:20:04 <Herkamire> synova: it happens a lot
23:20:09 <synova> my apologies
23:20:16 <kc5tja> synova: You contradicted yourself. 
23:20:25 <synova> kc5: how so?
23:20:42 <Herkamire> synova: what's wrong with earning your own belongings?
23:20:53 <kc5tja> "You can be a poor SOB, and never buy them a thing, and if you give them unbreakable confidence."
23:21:02 <Herkamire> synova: I think that's a very valuable lesson in self confidence
23:21:18 <kc5tja> My parents were poor SOBs.  My parents TRIED to give me confidence.
23:21:20 <kc5tja> They didn't.
23:21:23 <synova> kc5: I didn't finish my sentence
23:21:27 <Herkamire> right. 
23:21:28 <kc5tja> Why?  Because *I* didn't accept it.
23:21:30 <kc5tja> As a kid.
23:21:38 <kc5tja> It's not THEIR fault.
23:21:39 <synova> kc5: maybe they didn't have it, either?
23:21:45 <synova> why do you think *they* were poor?
23:21:45 <Herkamire> you can't just give people confidence. because confidence is a choice.
23:21:52 <synova> you've just accepted their way of life
23:22:01 <synova> if you want, you don't have to do a thing.
23:22:09 <synova> and you can be doomed to a life similar to theirs
23:22:11 <kc5tja> synova: Don't insult my intelligence.
23:22:12 <Herkamire> poor does not nessesarily mean unsuccessfull.
23:22:14 <Herkamire> me for example
23:22:19 <synova> kc5: I'm not. Please realize I'm not.
23:22:21 <Herkamire> many people value other things above money
23:22:28 <kc5tja> synova: It sure came across as that.
23:22:31 <Herkamire> eg I have lots of time.
23:22:36 <synova> kc5: I apologize.
23:22:59 <synova> but, seriously.
23:23:08 <Herkamire> synova: you're not seeing kc5tja's perception of your words
23:23:09 <synova> no matter how great or bad your parents are, you've learned their way of doing things
23:23:10 <kc5tja> My parents were poor because they did NOT have good paying jobs, yet were raising two kids.  Me, and my sister, the latter of which DIED when I was 16, and THEY (my PARENTS) had to pay for EVERYTHING.
23:23:17 <synova> and as much as you know better now
23:23:17 <kc5tja> Then the IRS comes to take the house.
23:23:26 <kc5tja> Don't tell  me my parents weren't poor, or unsuccessful.
23:23:29 <synova> you're still applying their principles, otherwise you wouldn't be where you are now.
23:23:31 <kc5tja> They got themselves *THRASHED*.
23:23:57 <kc5tja> And what, exactly, are their principles?
23:24:17 <kc5tja> My grandmother was a successful hair dresser (she's retired now).
23:24:25 <synova> kc5: I can't say, because I don't know them.
23:24:31 <kc5tja> My mother was a registered nurse for, man, I don't know how long.
23:24:31 <synova> but you didn't learn all of this by yourself.
23:24:36 <kc5tja> My dad taught astronomy at a local college for years.
23:24:47 <synova> naturally, you are too smart to put yourself down every day like this
23:24:48 <kc5tja> No, because it was innate.
23:24:48 <Herkamire> synova: you're just digging yourself deeper. it doesn't matter if you're right or not
23:24:52 <synova> and stamp out each opportunity
23:24:54 <kc5tja> Which is what I've been TRYING to tell you all along.
23:25:01 <Herkamire> synova: all you're doing now is insulting kc5tja and his family
23:25:28 <synova> herk: I'm hoping he will realize that it is up to him to realize that his success has nothing to do with his family
23:25:36 <synova> and I mean that as profoundly as I can say it
23:25:39 <synova> (which is hard for me)
23:25:43 <kc5tja> I know this!!!!
23:25:48 <kc5tja> But you can't change *NATURE*.
23:25:52 <synova> what nature?
23:25:56 <kc5tja> I know, 'cos I TRIED.
23:26:07 <synova> where in *NATURE* is it saying kc5 can't have a good luck streak from time to time?
23:26:11 <synova> tried what?
23:26:31 <kc5tja> synova: The wiring of neurons in my head, that's nature.  If they misfire, for any reason what-so-ever, then I'm screwed.
23:26:34 <synova> you've only convinced me you've tried on a new attitude like someone tries on a cheap suit at a store
23:26:43 <synova> no, that's all changable
23:26:49 <kc5tja> So How am I supposed to try on a new attitude?
23:26:52 <synova> completely changable
23:26:53 <kc5tja> Just flip a *(#@$&ing swithc/!
23:27:08 <synova> kc5: in a sense, yes.
23:27:10 <kc5tja> OK
23:27:12 --- quit: kc5tja ("leaving")
23:27:17 <Herkamire> LOL
23:27:22 <synova> haha
23:27:26 <synova> he was waiting for that.
23:27:28 <synova> =)
23:27:37 <Herkamire> synova: you were brutal
23:27:48 <synova> herkamire: I know.
23:27:56 <Herkamire> I know what you were getting at, but that aproach doesn't work
23:28:01 <synova> but I doubt anyone ever put it on his plate like that
23:28:08 <synova> everyone else likes him too much to do that
23:28:17 <synova> I have no "personal" stake to do that
23:28:32 <synova> so, as much as I don't like what I did
23:28:39 <synova> if I did at least make some inroads
23:28:51 <synova> than I will be happy to accept whatever ill will he will throw at me
23:29:18 --- join: kc5tja (~kc5tja@66-74-218-202.san.rr.com) joined #forth
23:29:21 <rO|> it is not useful to hurt anybody. on the long run. imho
23:29:29 <kc5tja> You are so very fucking wrong it's not even funny.
23:29:34 <kc5tja> SDO ahs.
23:29:35 <kc5tja> You ahve.
23:29:37 <kc5tja> Myparents have.
23:29:41 <kc5tja> My teachers have
23:29:48 <kc5tja> Everyone I've talked to about this has.
23:29:56 <kc5tja> And flipping a fucking switch doesn't work with me.
23:30:01 <kc5tja> THAT is nature.
23:30:01 <rO|> kc5tja: what is wrong?
23:30:02 <synova> kc5: I want you to flip one switch. The switch that says there is something wrong with you and that there are parts of you you can't change.
23:30:16 <kc5tja> I TRIED!!!!
23:30:18 <kc5tja> I FAILED!!!!
23:30:21 <synova> you have uniqueness you are just dragging over the rocks, because you are refuse to believe it can change for you
23:30:23 <kc5tja> NUMEROUS TIMES!!!
23:30:32 <Herkamire> synova: stop
23:30:51 <Herkamire> synova: I know exactly what you mean, but this aproach doesn't work
23:30:58 <synova> kc5: have you read the "Nature of Personal Reality"?
23:31:07 <kc5tja> No.
23:31:21 <synova> well, I highly suggest it
23:31:31 <kc5tja> Yes, Think And Grow Rich was also highly recommended.
23:31:33 <synova> its by "Jane Roberts"
23:31:35 <synova> trust me.
23:31:38 <Herkamire> synova: he has a bunch of this technology in his head.
23:31:43 <synova> these books aren't anything like you've sene before.
23:31:49 <synova> sene = seen
23:32:02 <synova> there is also "THe Nature of Mass Events", same author
23:32:15 <synova> otherwise known as the Seth Material
23:32:19 <synova> here's the deal
23:32:27 <synova> I'll *buy* it for you, if you can't cough up the cash
23:32:37 <synova> you can send me your address, no questions asked.
23:32:43 <synova> no strings, nothing.
23:32:48 <synova> you don't have to like it.
23:33:00 <synova> but if you want me to buy it for you, I expect you to read "Nature of.."
23:33:04 <kc5tja> Thanks, but no thanks.
23:33:14 <synova> well, the offer is still on the table.
23:33:25 <synova> now something about me.
23:33:37 <synova> since I essentially dragged your personal life over the rocks
23:33:51 <synova> I had godawful upbringing in a shithole suburb that absolutely sapped the life out of me
23:34:01 <synova> I essentially had parents who didn't believe I was worth a shit
23:34:08 <synova> and didn't support any of my "ambitious" projects
23:34:14 <synova> nor did I get a car, get good grades, etc.
23:34:30 <synova> I "sat it out" at a friend's house, for more than five years
23:34:47 <synova> went off and on through bouts of various diseases
23:35:03 <synova> (including parasites, because of my poor instestinal health)
23:35:23 <synova> and each time, I came out, with only just enough energy when I wake each day to eat and go back to bed
23:35:30 <synova> not even enough to shower
23:35:36 --- part: Serg left #forth
23:35:41 <synova> never went to college (as should be obvious to you by now)
23:36:08 <synova> in short, wasted twenty-five years, just like you, running in circles
23:36:16 <synova> and compromising myself every step of the way
23:36:18 <Herkamire> grrrrrrrrrrrr
23:36:20 <synova> I'm still doing that
23:36:32 <synova> but I've gotten a LOT better
23:36:46 <synova> dare I say it, but after these books, and literally DROPPING EVERYTHING
23:36:48 <synova> friends
23:36:49 <synova> family
23:36:53 <synova> and I moved away
23:36:55 <synova> to start fresh
23:37:01 <synova> and in one year, I won the lottery
23:37:04 <synova> believe it or not
23:37:17 <Herkamire> humph
23:37:19 <synova> I won't specify the state or the amount I won, but it is enough to hold for me ten years
23:37:28 <synova> I am comfortably living
23:37:31 <kc5tja> Well, gee whiz!!!
23:37:31 <synova> not rich
23:37:33 <Herkamire> lol
23:37:38 <synova> but I get by
23:37:45 <synova> without having to work, and I just do my projects
23:37:52 <kc5tja> If *I* could win the lottery...I probably wouldn't have to work for the next 10 either.
23:37:53 <synova> and I'm saying, those books will teach you how to pull your act together
23:38:04 <synova> and when you do, you'll find literally ANYTHING is possible
23:38:05 <Herkamire> you bough lottery tickets? boy, you're parents must have really *#&$ed you up ;)
23:38:07 <synova> you see.
23:38:13 <synova> I planned on winning the lottery.
23:38:16 <synova> no joke.
23:38:19 <synova> you can call me a liar.
23:38:21 <kc5tja> Bullshit.
23:38:23 <synova> you can call me a fraud.
23:38:24 <kc5tja> You are a liar.
23:38:31 <synova> sure.
23:38:39 <kc5tja> If you did win the lottery, as you say you did, it would be pure luck.
23:38:40 <synova> but I'm the one sitting here talking to you, smiling.
23:38:44 <Herkamire> planning on winning the lottery is stupid
23:38:47 <synova> kc5: you think so, eh?
23:38:49 <kc5tja> yes.
23:38:50 <kc5tja> I do.
23:38:57 <synova> herk: for an ordinary person, with ordinary attitude, it would be, yes.
23:39:07 <Herkamire> it's stupid for everyone
23:39:11 <Herkamire> we call it the stupid people tax
23:39:14 <synova> kc5: that's fine. but that shows a gross misunderstanding of "destiny" and "fortune"
23:39:19 <synova> herk: it is =)
23:39:28 <synova> fortunately, it did more for me than most people.
23:39:41 <kc5tja> At the gross expense of everyone else who tries your method.
23:39:42 <Herkamire> it's called luck
23:39:44 <synova> you get hit with a shit load of tax
23:39:49 <kc5tja> Pure, unadulterated LUCK.
23:39:52 <synova> almost 50% right off
23:39:56 <Herkamire> exactly
23:40:00 <synova> but you're good to go from that point on
23:40:07 <Herkamire> that's the "tax" part of "stupid people tax"
23:40:27 <synova> well, it is a shame that people are willing to give so much of their money to the government
23:40:37 <synova> because I would have kept more that way
23:40:38 <synova> :P
23:40:54 <synova> kc5: I don't believe in luck.
23:41:04 <synova> and I didn't when I decided to win the lottery.
23:41:26 <Herkamire> synova: how much money did you spend on lottery tickets?
23:41:49 <synova> herk: approximately $2 twice a week for three months.
23:41:57 <synova> $1 a game.
23:42:06 <kc5tja> synova: Neither do I, which is why I'm calling you a liar.
23:42:09 <synova> I'm not saying you should do what I did.
23:42:16 <synova> I think I was very fortunate to think I could do that.
23:42:19 <synova> that is why it worked.
23:42:25 <synova> but if you find something you think you can do.
23:42:26 <synova> you can do it.
23:42:30 <synova> simple as that.
23:42:40 <synova> kc5: I don't mind being called a liar.
23:42:58 <Herkamire> synova: do you mind being called stupid?
23:43:01 <synova> I'll accept it from you, because I think you are a good and talented person
23:43:11 <kc5tja> To me, being called a liar is tantamount to being accused of murder.
23:43:15 <synova> herk: if I am deserving of it, no.
23:43:39 <synova> kc5: I don't have such a principle.
23:44:12 <synova> I used lying for years just to keep in people's graces, so they don't look too closely at my lifestyle
23:44:25 <synova> suburbanites don't understand privacy. :P
23:44:44 <synova> I'm better off than I was, so I especially have no interest in divulging too much of what I do
23:44:52 <Herkamire> synova: why did you tell us about the lottery?
23:45:13 <kc5tja> I give up.
23:45:16 <synova> well, the lottery wasn't the conclusion of my story
23:45:26 <synova> I was just saying I was a real loser, too, once.
23:45:29 <synova> and I got out of it.
23:45:32 <synova> and you can, too.
23:45:41 <Herkamire> stupid
23:45:46 <synova> I mean I was DROP DEAD FUCKING LOSER, who wanted to be DEAD.
23:45:54 <synova> only thing keeping me going was my projects
23:46:00 <synova> my work was what I did
23:46:07 <synova> and I used it to distract myself from myself.
23:46:13 <Herkamire> so you started reading books and throwing your money away to other loosers and the government
23:46:21 <synova> and I did this for years, as a mechanism of shutting out teachers, parents, peers, etc.
23:46:35 <Herkamire> then you randomly got a pile of cash dropped on your lap
23:46:36 <synova> herk: you say "throwing away" as if I didn't have a plan.
23:46:40 <synova> I did have a plan, and I succeeded.
23:46:46 <synova> I don't call that throwing away.
23:46:56 <Herkamire> through chance. at bad odds
23:47:00 <synova> herk: it wasn't random.
23:47:12 <synova> I'm not saying that again. =)
23:47:14 <Herkamire> did you rig the lotery?
23:47:25 <synova> herk: not that I'm aware of =)
23:47:37 <Herkamire> we're not mystics here, we're realists
23:47:41 <synova> so am I
23:47:48 <Herkamire> scientific/technical people
23:47:57 <synova> science is every bit as dogmatic as religion
23:48:04 <Herkamire> we don't believe that intentions change the lottery drawings
23:48:22 <synova> when you realize that, you'll see that the religion you've adopted teaches things like chance from a perspective of misery and meaningless
23:48:32 <synova> I believe intentions change *EVERYTHING*
23:48:40 <Herkamire> the odds in the lottery are worse than 2:1 against you
23:48:42 <synova> and I'm proving myself right all the time.
23:48:50 <synova> herk: again, I know the odds
23:48:58 <synova> I am not a statistician.
23:49:09 <synova> I know under normal circumstances, I CAN'T win,
23:49:21 <synova> but, I'm different, and I've learned other ways.
23:49:22 <Herkamire> you can win under normal circumstances
23:49:31 <synova> right.
23:49:31 <Herkamire> the circumstances are normal, and people win the lottery regularly
23:49:50 <synova> herk: well, I won't say anymore then.
23:49:56 <synova> obviously, it is a fluke.
23:50:01 <synova> as you say =)
23:50:08 <Herkamire> it wasn't a fluke
23:50:18 <Herkamire> it was chance
23:50:21 <Herkamire> probabilities and all that
23:50:24 <synova> I'm saying that the world is pretty dim on IRC.
23:50:41 <synova> and your philosphy isn't taking you very far.
23:50:50 <synova> (no offense intended.)
23:51:03 <Herkamire> sure it is :)
23:51:11 <synova> I don't like seeing pain.
23:51:13 <Herkamire> I've got lots of time
23:51:23 <synova> that's why I decided to open my big mouth tonight
23:51:36 <Herkamire> I've got a great relationship.
23:51:39 <synova> I've made the possibility of making friends a non-possibility
23:51:49 <synova> so, you don't have to believe me
23:51:51 <Herkamire> I've got a nice broadband connection and a computer I like.
23:51:53 <synova> I have *no* stake in this.
23:51:57 <Herkamire> I've got enough money to do the things I want to do
23:52:02 <Herkamire> I have good health
23:52:03 <synova> herk: I'm not here to pry you away from things you like.
23:52:06 <Herkamire> I have good friends
23:52:11 <kc5tja> synova: I have no quarrels with you coming here, and I have no reason to believe we cannot be friends.
23:52:11 <Herkamire> I have lots of fun things to do
23:52:18 <Herkamire> I live where I want to live
23:52:22 <synova> I was only aiming at trying to help kc5.
23:52:37 <kc5tja> There is nothing in the definition of friendship, that I'm aware of, that says we must be in perfect agreement on all issues, for all time.
23:52:40 <synova> kc5: I appreciate your gentle nature.
23:53:22 <Herkamire> synova: generally "trying to change people" doesn't work
23:53:33 <kc5tja> That's why I left, is because the anger in me just welled up so much, that I had to leave.
23:53:36 <kc5tja> I just had to.
23:53:41 <synova> herk: you're right. but sometimes it is necessary to offer alternative possibilities.
23:53:49 <synova> kc5: I am not offended by anything you said to me tonight.
23:53:55 <kc5tja> Because I'm not communicating what the issues are with me.  These are issues that I can't put into words.
23:53:56 <synova> honestly, if you hated me, I would have more than understood.
23:53:58 <Herkamire> synova: if you want to have that sort of effect on people, look at the people that helped you change, and try their aproach
23:54:32 <synova> herk: well, to some extent, "putting it on the table" is what did it for me
23:54:40 <synova> my failed attempt was an attempt to emulate that
23:54:58 <Herkamire> someone put it on the table for you, or you did for yourself?
23:55:09 <synova> kc5: for the purposes of the channel logs, write me: synova@gmx.net
23:55:11 <synova> if you want the book.
23:55:27 <Herkamire> or did you read/hear someone else tell their story of being down and rethinking?
23:56:12 <synova> herk: I read the book. It inspired much self-analysis.
23:56:18 <synova> I took it from there.
23:56:22 <synova> it is not without work
23:56:28 <synova> but, it was a hell of a start.
23:56:38 <Herkamire> synova: how did the book do that?
23:56:44 <Herkamire> synova: did it tell you that you suck?
23:56:56 <Herkamire> synova: did it tell you that your parrents are loosers?
23:57:00 <synova> many ideas I have formulated throughout the years but never gave enough credit to it or put into proper form were expounded so tersely that I was able to affirm much of my belief in my own ability
23:57:08 <synova> not at all.
23:57:22 <synova> part of my complaints about parents stem from my own experiences with my parents
23:57:27 <Herkamire> so why do you do those things expecting that kc will get what you got out of the book?
23:57:30 <synova> sometimes I must realize that other people's parents weren't like mind
23:57:57 <synova> herk: I didn't seek to replace the book
23:58:06 <synova> I hated how hopeless he was
23:58:14 <synova> I only did my best to offer some assistance
23:58:18 <Herkamire> well, hating doesn't do any good
23:58:27 <rO|> :-)
23:58:41 <synova> you can try to roll back what I've said over the last few hours
23:58:49 <synova> but I won't do that
23:58:58 <Herkamire> I'm glad that you want to help people and are putting effort into it, but I wish you would find a method that works, and stop doing what you did here, because it only hurts people
23:59:14 <kc5tja> Different methods work for different people.
23:59:17 <synova> I believed in kc5 enough (in a perfect stranger) that I felt compelled to put what I saw as much on the table
23:59:18 <kc5tja> He had no way of knowing.
23:59:42 <synova> herk: interestingly, you seemed to agree with many of my methods only an hour or so ago
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/04.05.17