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01:36:41 <robert> Hi
01:51:41 <qFox> hey 
01:52:41 <robert> :)
01:54:07 <qFox> wazup
01:54:13 <qFox> how have you been
01:55:53 <robert> Not too bad
02:01:48 <qFox> and how many forths have you given life to the past few weeks?
02:01:48 <qFox> :p
02:03:12 <robert> Don't tell anyone, but... none. :(
02:03:18 <qFox> omg?
02:03:27 <qFox> go build kuF then ;)
02:04:32 <robert> Yeah RIGHT.
02:04:52 <qFox> uhu
02:07:16 <robert> ;-D
02:26:25 <robert> Hmm... The Voyager probes are still working. That's high-quality stuff.
03:12:48 <qFox> the jupiter moon spacecraft thing?
03:13:44 <robert> They passed by Jupiter in 1979.
03:13:51 <qFox> well... oh
03:13:52 <qFox> :)
03:13:58 <qFox> i'l blame luck ;)
03:14:19 <robert> >:)
03:16:57 <robert> Anyway, it would be fun to play an adventre game using one of their on-board computers.
03:17:25 <robert> Would take about 24 hours to get a message there and back
03:17:46 <qFox> .... yeah fun 
03:17:48 <qFox> :P
03:18:38 <robert> <3
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03:36:11 <robert> Hi Topaz 
03:36:37 <Topaz> 'lo
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04:28:19 <robert> Hi, Sam
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05:13:35 <robert> Hi
05:13:53 <aum> hi
05:17:09 <aum> doing my first serious assembler hacking in many years, feels so weird
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05:30:56 <robert> aum: Congratulations. :)
05:31:12 <aum> heh
05:31:28 <robert> I have actually mostly been hacking in assembly language.
05:31:43 * aum was hacking assembler from 1976 to 1982, but got spoiled by high-level languages
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08:37:30 <robert> Hi and by
08:37:31 <robert> E
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11:06:22 <zoly> g'day
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11:17:56 <zoly> crc, you're pretty quick updating forthfreak.net 
11:18:09 <crc> :)
11:18:28 <zoly> i have used your input as base for progress report
11:18:34 * crc will be taking a nap in a few minutes; I'm rather tired
11:23:17 <crc> what kind of progress report>
11:23:18 <crc> ?
11:23:32 <zoly> telling what works
11:23:42 <zoly> i.e. what has been implemented successfully
11:23:53 <crc> ahh, ok
11:25:16 <zoly> t'is going smoothly now
11:38:13 * crc plays with a nice forth-in-javascript
11:38:25 <crc> (hopefully soon to be publically released)
11:38:36 <zoly> t'is public already
11:38:43 <crc> not yours :)
11:38:47 <zoly> ah
11:38:55 <zoly> i'll compete
11:39:37 <crc> This one has a terminal emulator for truely interactive use :)
11:40:23 <zoly> ah.
11:40:39 <zoly> that is the forth you referred to on forthfreak ?
11:40:43 <crc> yes
11:41:12 <crc> It has a working compiler, interpreter, words, and terminal emulator
11:41:14 <zoly> ok, i've restored the page to your version
11:41:17 <crc> :)
11:41:34 <zoly> now you only have to wait till it si public
11:41:41 <crc> Yours seems to have gone beyond my JSForth experiment already
11:41:59 <crc> zoly: the public release should come by the end of the month 
11:42:04 <zoly> definitely
11:42:34 <crc> I'm just waiting for the developer to finish his some cleanups before I link to it on the wiki 
11:42:36 <zoly> i'll beat them to it :)
11:42:42 <crc> zoly: go ahead
11:42:48 <crc> competition is good :)
11:43:02 <zoly> i'd have expected to be able to interactively compile hi-level by monday
11:43:18 <crc> with a terminal?
11:43:24 <zoly> using the web browser
11:43:27 <zoly> and a form
11:43:38 <crc> Not exactly the same though.
11:43:57 <zoly> my target audience will be using a web browser
11:44:07 <crc> this runs in a web browser
11:44:11 <Herkamire> not interactive yet?
11:44:22 <crc> It has a terminal emulator that runs inside the web page
11:44:34 <crc> Very cool if slightly sluggish
11:44:52 <Herkamire> where is it?
11:44:58 <Herkamire> http://forthfreak.net/JS-Forth.html ?
11:45:22 <zoly> Herkamire: no strings yet
11:45:46 <zoly> that means, no create, no parametrized find yet
11:45:55 <zoly> even though find works
11:46:24 <zoly> will probably do the same sort of pack/unpack like in bashforth
11:46:45 <Herkamire> cool
11:46:55 <zoly> converting forth strings (1 char per memory ) into host lang string
11:46:59 <zoly> and vice versa
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11:47:22 <zoly> but i found runtime words more important at this point
11:47:37 <zoly> dovar, doconst, branch, 0branch and the like
11:47:40 <zoly> those work
11:48:02 <zoly> string packing/unpacking is so hi-level
11:48:08 <zoly> boring :)
11:48:45 <zoly> the list of words you see comes actually from executing the word  "words"
11:49:15 <zoly> i.e. when i add a primitive, colon word, constant, variable, they show up there right away
11:49:39 <zoly> is output of the life vocabulary
11:50:34 <Herkamire> cool stuff. works here
11:50:49 <zoly> top and bottom zeroes are stack depths, to catch stack inbalance in any of the words in there
11:50:57 <zoly> the 106 is "here"
11:51:15 <zoly> other numbers are test output, verifying proper operation of stuff
11:51:38 <zoly> there's some hi-level words executed in there too
11:51:41 <zoly> nested
11:52:09 <zoly> replace .html against .js for viewing the source
11:53:13 <zoly> i definitely do need to test with what js versions it will run, and with which one it won't
11:53:30 <Herkamire> backspack doesn't erase the char on the screen for me
11:53:31 <zoly> cause i didn't bother about version differences at all at this point
11:55:00 <Herkamire> well, I've using firefox 1.0 on ppc linux if that helps
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15:35:15 <crc> Hi all
15:40:21 <Raystm2> hi crc 
15:40:33 <Raystm2> rj has me busy getting started with linux
15:44:02 <crc> :)
15:44:18 <crc> You have it running now?
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15:54:57 <Herkamire> is zoly the same guy that made bashforth?
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16:01:20 <crc> I think that Zoly is Speuler
16:01:26 <crc> Not 100% sure though
16:01:48 <crc> At least, they both have access to the forthfreak.net server, and work on the same projects
16:02:08 <Herkamire> iirc bashforth was Speuler creation
16:02:22 <crc> yes it was
16:02:42 <crc> And Speuler wanted a forth-in-javascript
16:03:10 * crc hopes that Jeff approves the sharing of his jsforth soon...
16:05:41 <Herkamire> I thought he said it was public already
16:05:47 <crc> It's semi-public
16:06:03 <crc> He doesn't want it linked to from retroforth.org, wikipedia, or forthfreak.net yet
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16:18:58 <aum> nornin folks
16:19:04 <aum> mornin, even
16:19:15 <crc> Hi aum
16:19:35 <aum> yo crc
16:19:53 <aum> how goes in forth land of?
16:19:58 <crc> Not too bad
16:20:09 <crc> discussion of retroforth 8 has started on the mailing list now
16:20:31 <crc> And I'm well into my planned updates already :)
16:20:39 <aum> i hear that word a lot - what's retroforth's Main Claims To Fame?
16:21:14 <crc> small, easy to learn Forth with a lot of flexibility, frequent releases, and an active community of users
16:21:30 <aum> cool
16:21:31 <crc> Not to mention a few real-world apps written using it :)
16:21:34 <aum> x86-only?
16:21:38 <crc> yes
16:21:47 <crc> SeaForth was/is planning a PPC version
16:22:02 <aum> what host OSs? or does it have its own OS?
16:22:04 <crc> And I'm going to start on an ARM version once I get 8.0 to a stable state
16:22:14 <aum> ARM - very smart move
16:22:22 <aum> embedded Forth heaven!
16:22:52 <crc> It is its own OS, and can also be used under Linux, FreeBSD, Windows, BeOS, SCO OpenServer, and other OSes with the optional libc support :)
16:23:01 <aum> especially if it can support the Atmel LPC ARM chips with on-chip RAM/EEPROM
16:23:37 <crc> I'm still looking at options in the ARM field
16:23:41 <aum> i'm handcrafting a Forth for PIC 18F microcontrollers
16:23:54 <crc> A PalmOS version seems likely
16:24:00 <crc> aum: I remember you mentioning that
16:24:17 <crc> I have yet to try any PIC coding
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16:24:48 <aum> well, i was hacking a forth that runs bytecodes resident in off-chip EEPROM, but it was way too slow - typically 0.1mips
16:24:56 <crc> ugh
16:25:15 <aum> clock speed limitation in serial EEPROM chip
16:25:44 <aum> was writing it for PIC16F chips, which have Architecture From Hell
16:26:07 <aum> major relief to be coding for PIC18F, which has a far saner, much more forth-friendly architecture
16:26:22 <aum> single machine instructions to push/pop to/from either stack
16:26:50 <aum> what's retroforth's threading model?
16:26:57 <crc> stc
16:27:11 <aum> ahh, same as what I'm using
16:27:23 <crc> It's the cleanest one IMO
16:27:30 <aum> stc, as in a jump table of subroutines, referenced in code via tokens?
16:27:51 <crc> No, stc as in "call foo"  "call bar" ...
16:27:59 <aum> ah, ok
16:28:00 <crc> Good old native code
16:28:24 <crc> (with a few inlined words like the various forms of if)
16:28:51 <aum> i'm going the code squeeze route, where words declared as 'primitive foo' get added to a jump table, and refs to 'foo' in code compile to a 1-byte opcode
16:29:26 <crc> that makes sense on a more limited arch though
16:29:54 <aum> i could have gone native code, but absolute jumps/calls cost 4 bytes
16:30:10 <aum> so primitive calls now cost 1 byte, and native func calls cost 3 bytes
16:30:19 <crc> :)
16:30:42 <aum> i expect to achieve 4x the code density, at a cost of 1/10 the speed
16:31:11 <crc> there's always tradeoffs
16:31:26 <aum> total rom=32k, vm/primitives overhead=~2k
16:32:02 <crc> My compiler/interpreter is 2k, another 2-4k for the additional primitives and core words
16:32:17 <aum> smokin' :)
16:32:47 <aum> i'd go a /real/ forth, except that writing to rom is awkward - must erase a whole 64-byte block, then reprogram it
16:32:53 <crc> yeah
16:32:59 <crc> and that wears out roms quickly :(
16:33:06 <aum> sure does
16:33:21 <aum> i can't stand the idea of roms with limited endurance
16:33:35 <aum> one of these days, they'll come up with DNA-based ROMs with unlimited endurance
16:33:47 * crc wants magnetic memory...
16:34:23 <aum> shame s[d]ram is so expensive compared to flash
16:34:44 <crc> yeah
16:35:59 <aum> i think retroforth's will boom once you get it onto embeddable chips like the ARM
16:36:11 <aum> retroforth's popularity, i mean
16:37:58 <crc> That'd be nice
16:38:06 <crc> It has a good following on x86 already
16:38:21 <crc> An ARM version (and PPC) would make it more appealing
16:38:36 <aum> there's hordes of embedded h4x045 waiting for deliverance from Java Hell
16:38:53 <aum> and deliverance from C Purgatory :P
16:39:41 <crc> :)
16:40:11 <crc> My first step would be a compiler that generated standalone code for ARM chips
16:40:26 <aum> i've been switching from C to Assembler, feels like switching from $7/bottle wine to $200/bottle vintage
16:40:52 <aum> standalone compiler for ARM chips - good start
16:41:17 <crc> Once I have that working, the rest should be easy enough I hope
16:41:19 <aum> imho, you'll really need to support the Atmel 'everything-on-the-chip' ARMs
16:41:29 <crc> URL?
16:41:35 <aum> www.atmel.com
16:41:50 <aum> their products link, then click on the arm-based link
16:42:29 <aum> good thing about the atmel ARMs is they need no support circuitry, apart from crystal and minimal interfacing logic
16:43:28 <crc> The "AT91 Thumb" link?
16:43:35 <aum> that's the one
16:43:38 <crc> ok
16:44:24 <aum> someone could make a fortune selling an ARM chip adapter board that plugs into breadboard
16:45:04 <crc> hmm
16:48:02 <aum> i got a cruel shock the other day - took my PIC-based prototype to a manufacturer to get 10 initial units built - min cost $4k, with all the setup costs and ISOxxxx bullshit
16:50:44 <crc> ick
16:50:54 <crc> 4k for 10 units :(
16:51:27 <aum> gonna go to a 'Joe's Backyard PCB Manufacture, Inc', get the boards for $200 and build 'em myself
17:06:13 <crc> :)
17:14:23 <aum> shit, 40 bytes to implement .s
17:14:37 <crc> ick
17:15:51 <aum> well, i am implementing a 16-bit forth atop an 8-bit arch
17:16:14 <crc> ahh
17:16:38 <aum> would cost 80-120 bytes on a pic16f
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17:18:06 <aum> yo angel
17:18:11 <crc> Hi solar_angel
17:18:33 <solar_angel> hello
17:20:06 <TheBlueWizard> hiya solar_angel
17:20:56 <solar_angel> hiya
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17:30:45 <aum> %*@#$ @+$%#&$ !!!
17:30:56 <aum> 'make' thinks '.f' forth sources are fortran
17:31:11 <solar_angel> *lol* nasty.
17:31:43 <crc> tell it otherwise :)
17:32:21 <aum> guess i'll need to combine compilation/assembly into one phase
17:32:35 <aum> my forth compiles .f to relocatable .asm, then assembles
17:32:52 <crc> how is that a problem?
17:33:02 <aum> %.o : %.asm
17:33:06 <aum>   gpasm -c $<
17:33:13 <aum> %.asm : %.f
17:33:18 <aum>   ./picfc.py $<
17:33:28 <aum> %.hex : %.o drivers.a
17:33:32 <aum>   gplink...
17:33:39 <aum> when i do a 'make test7.hex'
17:34:10 <aum> it misunderstands the build chain, and goes straight to 'fcc -c -o test7.o test7.f'
17:34:23 <crc> hmm
17:34:38 <solar_angel> you need to tell make not to use its implicit rule for fortran
17:34:41 <crc> make is a tricky beast
17:35:35 * aum momentarily considers using scons
17:36:59 <TheBlueWizard> yeah...make is indeed tricky at times
17:37:54 <aum> woot, $(<:.f=.asm) worked
17:44:53 <aum> yikes, .s outputs $1234 as 'JIHG' - not exactly what I'm after
17:45:24 <crc> hmm
17:45:55 <crc> My .s is sort of strange. I don't display the entire stack, just the top 10 elements :)
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17:46:33 <aum> quick poll - is it lame to recognise '\' escapes like '\n' in ." strings?
17:46:42 <crc> Yes
17:47:06 <aum> any reason, apart from the fact it's non-standard?
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17:47:24 <crc> it makes the string parsing more complex
17:47:47 <aum> my compiler is written in python, so parsing escapes is just a method call
17:48:45 <crc> then go for it
17:49:49 <aum> makes life way easier
17:50:00 <TheBlueWizard> aum: only one particular escape? or are you planning on having more escapes?
17:50:27 <aum> python strings have a method '.decode()'
17:50:49 <aum> so to interpret all the escape sequences in string 's', one just does 's.decode("string-escape")'
17:51:01 <aum> supports all the C-style escape syntax
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17:51:27 * aum can't even bear to imagine the task of coding that in forth
17:51:39 <TheBlueWizard> hiya I440r
17:51:51 <crc> :)
17:51:51 <solar_angel> oh come now, it's not that bad.
17:52:24 <aum> deep forth hacking is hell on the synapses
17:52:28 <TheBlueWizard> aum: I see...I personally don't like the \" thing; it makes parsing more difficult to code up.  I'd use \q instead.  My 2 cents
17:52:35 <crc> I do deep hacking all the time...
17:52:56 <aum> i'm just spoiled by c, python etc
17:53:07 <aum> i like forth for embedded stuff though
17:53:59 <TheBlueWizard> I see :)
17:54:15 <solar_angel> my favorite script language: postscript.
17:54:45 <aum> solar_angel: have you written any apps in postscript?
17:55:00 <solar_angel> http://caladan.nanosoft.ca/c4/ccorner/5.php
17:55:04 <TheBlueWizard> the reason why I don't like \" is that when I want to scan the C code for literal strings, \" bites the ass...(oh I did get to deal with that, but, still...ugh)
17:55:22 <solar_angel> that answer your question? :P
17:56:03 <aum> yep! :)
17:56:25 <aum> any oo in ps?
17:56:34 <solar_angel> depends what you mean...
17:57:06 <solar_angel> sortof.
17:57:18 <solar_angel> postscript is a great language for people who love forth though...
17:57:34 <solar_angel> postscript is across between forth and a script language
17:57:47 <aum> what 'backend' facilities does ps support, apart from visual rendering?
17:57:58 <solar_angel> well that depends entirely on your interpreter
17:58:25 <solar_angel> some are graphical-only...  some are more flexible
17:58:35 <solar_angel> basically, it all depends on what external interfaces the interpreter provides
17:58:50 <aum> do ps interps have the same low-footprint capability as forth interps
17:58:51 <aum> ?
17:59:11 <crc> Not in my experience
18:00:03 <solar_angel> depends...
18:00:09 <solar_angel> they can.
18:00:20 <solar_angel> they were originally designed to be run on 8-bit micros running inside printers :P
18:00:44 <solar_angel> now, something like ghostscript has a lot of extra crap added, like printer drivers for inkjet printers, software renderers, and the like
18:01:05 <solar_angel> a stripped-down postscript interpreter targetted to scripting instead of graphics could certainly be quite small
18:01:31 <crc> how different would it be from Forth if it lacked graphics?
18:02:05 <I440r> hi ppl
18:02:08 <I440r> brb :)
18:02:13 * TheBlueWizard remembers the days when Postscript printers are soooo slow (he used one while in college...around '89)
18:02:21 <crc> Hi I440r
18:02:38 <TheBlueWizard> *were
18:02:41 <solar_angel> crc - well, postscript is designed with efficient handling of strings, lists, and dictionaries.
18:02:53 <solar_angel> in some ways, it's much higher level
18:02:56 <crc> Ok
18:03:14 * crc should take a look at it someday
18:03:19 <solar_angel> i'm thinking of making a program called 'pssh' for my OS, though
18:03:24 <solar_angel> yep, the postscript shell :P
18:04:42 <crc> :)
18:13:05 <aum> fun hint #413a: it often helps to put 'return' at the end of code words
18:13:40 <crc> :)
18:13:53 <crc> Unless you want fallthrough :)
18:14:18 <aum> oh yes
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18:14:57 <aum> forth is a good lang for cosmetic surgery - 'nip', 'tuck'...
18:15:03 <solar_angel> heh
18:15:06 <solar_angel> NIP AND TUCK is valid synta
18:15:08 <solar_angel> +x
18:19:23 <crc> goodnight
18:19:30 <aum> night crc
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18:24:40 <aum> nice point to reach - got ." cr emit . .s, word calls, code calls and basic loops working - end of debugging hell now
18:25:28 <aum> writing a forth from scratch is an educational experience - it should be mandatory for all CS101 students
18:25:47 <solar_angel> heh
18:25:59 <solar_angel> yep, writing a forth is an experience
18:26:14 <solar_angel> i've done it a half-dozen times, not counting the "almost-forths" i've written (another half-dozen times)
18:26:37 <TheBlueWizard> :)
18:26:45 <mavros> do you thing teaching open firmware would fit with a computer organization-architecture course?
18:26:47 <aum> writing the first one is hardest - thereafter one can gut code from interps/compilers one's already written
18:26:52 <mavros> or am i dumb?
18:26:54 <TheBlueWizard> it is almost a religious (or spiritual) experience :)
18:27:30 * aum wonders if the universe was coded in forth
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18:30:28 <TheBlueWizard> if it is, it must be coded in some incredibly advanced form of Forth...multidimensional parallelism, infinitely many local calculations, 
18:30:32 <TheBlueWizard> ....
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18:39:28 <aum> hmm, to implement roll, or not to implement roll
18:48:01 <aum> fsck it, i'll implement locals instead
18:50:03 <SeaForth> crc, still planning the RetroF PPC indeed.  I'm still learning the PPC asm
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