00:00:00 --- log: started forth/05.07.17 00:17:02 --- join: snowrichard (~richard@adsl-69-155-177-154.dsl.lgvwtx.swbell.net) joined #forth 00:18:01 --- quit: snowrichard (Client Quit) 00:35:19 --- quit: sproingie ("Konversation terminated!") 00:56:10 --- quit: swalters ("User disconnected") 01:08:28 --- join: swalters (~swalters@2416457hfc118.tampabay.res.rr.com) joined #forth 03:42:02 --- quit: tathi ("leaving") 04:14:42 --- quit: crc (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 04:53:08 --- join: twb (twb@CPE-144-132-70-24.vic.bigpond.net.au) joined #forth 04:56:12 I'm trying to define a word with a conditional (if else then) at the top-level, and gforth says I have to compile it (as opposed to interpreting it). How do I do that? 04:59:16 : foo if whatever then ; like this? 04:59:25 Robert: yes. 04:59:34 http://paste.lisp.org/display/9974 04:59:34 Usually you add a dummy word and then interpret it in these cases. 05:00:06 Which Forth are you using? 05:00:11 Most ones will miscompile that. 05:00:11 gforth. 05:00:19 "recurse" is used for recursion. 05:00:28 Ah, right. 05:00:39 Using the word name will just compile the old copy of the word (or give an error if none exists). 05:00:46 So I should use "recurse" instead of the word in the definition? 05:00:52 Aaaaah. 05:01:19 Right. And I think 0! is defined as 1. 05:01:58 Maybe you don't care about this right now, but checking for 0 only has to be done once. 05:02:31 I'm really new to forth. Pray enlighten me. 05:02:50 Also: a common construct instead of if else foo then 05:03:03 Is using the word "exit" (to return) 05:03:15 if exit else foo ? 05:03:30 dup 1 <> if exit then ...what to do if it actually IS one. 05:03:37 No, without using else. 05:04:02 And <> is not equal, I presume :-) 05:04:23 Hm, I hope so. Not all too familiar with ANS. 05:04:55 Yep, looks like it. 05:05:16 Even if I'm aware this is just an exercise, normal recursion is rarely used/needed in Forth. 05:05:35 Some Forths use tail recursion instead, while others concentrate on looping constructs. 05:06:15 I'm actually taking an ML course this semester, and I'm trying to translate into Forth as I go :-) 05:06:28 Ah. 05:06:55 I think most good ML compilers (and some of them are pretty good) translate your recursive functions to tail recursion anyway. 05:07:35 Which basically is the same thing as making them iterative... the recursion game is there because it makes mathematicians horny. 05:07:57 In Forth this is explicit though (naturally, since it's much more low-level) 05:11:28 --- join: PoppaVic (~pete@0-1pool64-130.nas22.chicago4.il.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 05:11:41 our hero ;-) 05:12:41 you will kill the autoconf dragon 05:13:14 --- join: PoppaVic_ (~pete@0-1pool66-233.nas22.chicago4.il.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 05:15:17 Mornin' 05:15:27 --- quit: PoppaVic (Nick collision from services.) 05:15:30 --- nick: PoppaVic_ -> PoppaVic 05:15:51 So as experienced Forthers, do you think first-year CS students should be taught Forth instead of some random RISC assembly language? 05:16:34 No. I'm of the opinion that you should learn some assembly language before getting into Forth. 05:16:35 Actually, I do.. But then.. I figure it can be learned at home anyway 05:16:43 But then again, I'm not an experienced Forther. :) 05:17:10 Assembly language and Forth are complementary... like asm and C, or BASIC and schizophrenia. 05:17:14 The "difficult" part would be really learning "structures", in most forths. 05:17:34 PoppaVic: What kind of structures? 05:17:56 data-structures in Forth are just plain odd, compared to most asm and C 05:18:50 Robert: by "structures" I mean the "typedef struct {...} name;" I know and love 05:18:56 Ah, OK. 05:19:19 I usually just use pointer arithmetics to simulate those. ;) 05:19:27 I know there are options for forth to have structs, but they ARE options and they are definitely odd 05:20:12 Yeah, rob - that would be expected. I don't like it, but it's a truth 05:21:52 But, yeah.. Start folks out in interactive forth, and they can learn so many different ideas at their own pace... THEN suggest C, then look at asm. 05:23:20 I'd go the other way around. If you know how a Forth works, you won't consider it black magic...which is Good. 05:24:34 Robert: for a newbie to comps, it's _all_ voodoo. Might as well be untied to a cpu and learn as much as possible before having to suffer assorted syntax/semantics 05:28:25 the first language is most times the language which you like much more(nostalgic) and so it has some strategic aspect, that noobs learn forth first. =) 05:29:16 well, I had to suffer z80-asm first ;-), rebuilding cp/m with drivers was a PITA. Forth was a great tool for poking around and testing ideas 05:34:32 hmm ok. 05:35:12 I learned Forth by implementing it - which I think is a good way. 07:14:42 --- quit: twb ("restarting") 08:03:44 man... I am so goddamned tired of writing lexers/parsers *sigh* 08:19:05 brb... lemme' recycle 08:19:11 --- quit: PoppaVic ("Pulls the pin...") 08:20:05 --- join: sproingie (foobar@64-121-15-14.c3-0.sfrn-ubr8.sfrn.ca.cable.rcn.com) joined #forth 08:21:59 --- join: PoppaVic (~pete@0-1pool74-106.nas24.chicago4.il.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 08:23:00 motherfucker 08:23:03 gaah 08:23:32 language, dude 08:24:28 female parental sexual intercourse committer 09:01:11 --- join: snoopy_16 (snoopy_161@dsl-084-058-138-045.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 09:09:32 --- quit: Snoopy42 (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)) 09:09:47 --- nick: snoopy_16 -> Snoopy42 09:16:44 virl: how's yer C? I can shoot you a file-pair that seem a decent base for something. 09:18:24 --- join: saon|smg1 (~saon@c-66-177-224-222.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) joined #forth 09:18:27 --- join: saon_ (~saon@c-66-177-224-222.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) joined #forth 09:18:46 --- quit: saon|smgl (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 09:19:06 uum, my C is good 09:19:13 go ahead and send 09:19:20 chris dot r dot walton at gmail dot com 09:19:26 nah, yer "busy" - just maintain yer maintains 09:20:18 I'm busily trying to write a configurator. 09:21:13 ascertains the API ok so far, but I want to generate an associative database which is 'typed'. So far, can't see a nice clean solution to macro-expansion. 09:21:59 The hillarious part is: it's C running -E on it's own code. 09:22:35 Near as I can tell, -E is even doze-portable 09:23:00 -E? 09:23:15 preparse all macros/includes 09:23:30 "expand" it all 09:23:56 --- quit: saon_ (Remote closed the connection) 09:24:03 --- join: saon_ (1000@c-66-177-224-222.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) joined #forth 09:24:14 what you end up with is all possiblt prototypes. BUT, not macros/values 09:28:42 I;m looking for 1 or two guys, (and may have one), to lex/parse the results to generate a db of types/functions. And, a way to ascertain a #define w/o a crap-out/fail-to-compile. 09:34:58 --- quit: saon (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 09:36:52 --- nick: saon_ -> saon 09:42:50 --- join: crc (crc@1Cust1827.an2.phl18.da.uu.net) joined #forth 09:43:00 Hi. 09:43:12 Hi 09:46:07 --- part: thinfu left #forth 10:16:30 --- quit: PoppaVic ("Pulls the pin...") 10:33:06 ah, fuck! too late I read it. when I would really understand what PoppaVic wants. my damn english! something with a database and types, but after that my understanding stops. 10:35:28 virl: whenever you need help translating english->german or vice versa, let me know :) 10:41:38 Or when you need obscene words pasted over and over again on IRC. 10:44:14 sry, I'm real sorry. 10:44:37 virl: don't worry, Robert isn't any better. :) 10:44:49 muaha, i remember the primula times 10:44:58 ^^ 10:47:11 what you means 10:48:47 virl: What are you apologizing for, btw? 10:49:55 Robert: teh FUCK! thas what, teh FUCK!! :) 10:50:29 Robert, for my obscene words. 10:50:34 Oh. 10:50:42 virl: I wasn't refering to you. :) 10:51:05 But to arke. I banned him for repeating worse stuff than that like ten times. 10:51:51 because the funny part is once I left he would say even worse stuff even more 10:51:52 :) 10:52:00 but anyway, not to start a fight, Robert is teh cool 10:54:05 btw. from where is this 'teh .*' blah stuff? 10:54:14 I shouldn't feed the troll any more. 10:54:19 --- part: Robert left #forth 10:55:39 haha 10:56:37 --- topic: set to 'Forth: One language, many dialects. #forth - general forth discussion. #c4th - ColorForth. #retro - RetroForth. #c4th-ot - social channel. #1xforth - a secret channel for 1xforthers. #concatenative - the category of language that forth belongs to (sorta). Robert is a cry baby. Awww.' by arke 10:57:43 * virl categorises 'teh .*' stuff under 'troll rituals' 10:58:03 well, not quite 10:58:08 but yes, often 11:20:17 --- quit: madgarden (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 11:25:16 --- join: itrebal (~itrebal@adsl-157-13-253.ard.bellsouth.net) joined #forth 11:26:02 --- part: itrebal left #forth 11:45:55 --- join: Raystm2_ (~vircuser@adsl-68-93-122-184.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth 11:46:09 --- quit: Raystm2 (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 11:46:54 --- nick: Raystm2_ -> Raystm2 11:47:41 ah, when I would know what PoppaVic is designing exactly. an autoconf replacement and that in a portable way, or so. 12:50:59 --- join: slava (~slava@CPE0080ad77a020-CM000e5cdfda14.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 14:28:13 --- quit: crc () 14:30:16 --- join: TheBlueWizard (TheBlueWiz@ts001d0957.wdc-dc.xod.concentric.net) joined #forth 14:40:45 --- join: Topaz (jonny@spr1-horn1-6-0-cust113.cosh.broadband.ntl.com) joined #forth 14:56:22 --- quit: Topaz (Remote closed the connection) 14:56:56 --- join: genoobie (~genoobie@pool-71-241-167-74.buff.east.verizon.net) joined #forth 14:57:18 hello...I'm wrestling with a forth problem in mac's firmware 15:05:26 --- join: Topaz (jonny@spr1-horn1-6-0-cust113.cosh.broadband.ntl.com) joined #forth 15:07:39 hmm 15:12:16 --- nick: TheBlueWizard -> TheDarkBlueWiz 15:15:18 anyone here? 15:26:22 --- quit: Topaz (Connection timed out) 15:34:11 --- part: TheDarkBlueWiz left #forth 15:38:25 --- join: warp0b00 (~warpzero@dsl.103.mt.onewest.net) joined #forth 15:44:59 --- part: genoobie left #forth 15:47:10 --- join: Topaz (jonny@spr1-horn1-6-0-cust113.cosh.broadband.ntl.com) joined #forth 15:47:15 --- quit: Topaz (Client Quit) 16:01:23 --- join: genoobie (~genoobie@pool-71-241-167-74.buff.east.verizon.net) joined #forth 16:01:28 hello all 16:02:03 brb... 16:17:30 --- quit: warp0b00 (Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)) 16:53:56 --- join: madgarden (~madgarden@Toronto-HSE-ppp3713026.sympatico.ca) joined #forth 17:35:04 --- join: crc (crc@pool-70-110-218-93.phil.east.verizon.net) joined #forth 18:41:35 --- quit: genoobie ("Never put off till tomorrow, what you can do the day after tomorrow") 20:15:21 --- join: genoobie (~genoobie@pool-71-241-167-74.buff.east.verizon.net) joined #forth 20:15:25 hello 20:18:31 hi 20:20:13 --- quit: genoobie ("This computer has gone to sleep") 20:57:34 --- quit: sproingie ("Konversation terminated!") 21:05:14 --- join: genoobie (~genoobie@pool-71-241-167-74.buff.east.verizon.net) joined #forth 21:05:53 anyone there? 21:06:19 yes 21:06:36 well... 21:06:41 I've got this mac g4 21:06:58 and I'm having a little trouble understanding the OF 21:07:10 hmm 21:07:22 but the specific problem is this 21:07:38 I want to be able to boot from a scsi cdrom 21:08:10 and the env variable boot-device is pci/ADPT,2930cu@3/@3:2 21:08:27 then followed by this \\tbxi 21:08:42 actually \\:tbxi 21:09:51 there's a boot file written in forth & it also has some compiled stuff in it called BootX 21:10:07 are you familiar with any of this slava? 21:10:19 sorry no 21:10:36 damn...:) 21:10:42 i know forth, but not OF 21:11:17 what kind fo system do you use? 21:11:22 of 21:11:33 i work on factor 21:11:49 what is that? 21:11:58 its a lisp-like forth for writing web applications, and more recently, GUI stuff 21:12:20 what os? 21:12:27 unix and windows 21:13:03 ahh...i see...well I don't know if there's any equivalent in unix for open firmware 21:15:27 i have a g3 imac with OF 21:17:18 slava have you ever poked around in there? 21:17:27 no 21:37:35 --- quit: genoobie ("This computer has gone to sleep") 23:20:56 --- join: YoyoFreeBSD (~yoyofreem@222.90.3.158) joined #forth 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/05.07.17