00:00:00 --- log: started forth/05.08.15 00:13:35 --- join: Amanita_Virosa (n=jenni@CPE0000e812679b-CM000a7362da55.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 00:50:40 --- quit: Amanita_Virosa (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 00:50:50 --- join: Amanita_Virosa (n=jenni@CPE0000e812679b-CM000a7362da55.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 00:52:52 --- join: virsys (n=virsys@or-65-40-181-76.dyn.sprint-hsd.net) joined #forth 01:01:12 --- quit: virsys ("bah") 01:01:57 --- join: virsys (n=virsys@or-65-40-181-76.dyn.sprint-hsd.net) joined #forth 01:50:50 --- join: horuzlna (i=Inpzl@stmnca-cuda2-new-70-35-58-204.vnnyca.adelphia.net) joined #forth 01:59:54 --- quit: horuzlna () 03:27:58 --- quit: Amanita_Virosa ("Slips out.") 05:38:35 --- nick: Raystm2 -> nanstm 05:51:35 --- join: PoppaVic (n=pete@0-1pool46-249.nas30.chicago4.il.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 05:52:00 Lo 06:08:44 --- join: docl (n=docl@dpcbw099186.direcpc.com) joined #forth 07:02:12 --- join: snoopy_16 (i=snoopy_1@dsl-084-058-166-075.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 07:10:32 --- quit: Snoopy42 (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)) 07:10:40 --- nick: snoopy_16 -> Snoopy42 07:22:07 --- join: madwork (n=madgarde@derby.metrics.com) joined #forth 07:25:04 --- join: sproingie (i=foobar@64-121-15-14.c3-0.sfrn-ubr8.sfrn.ca.cable.rcn.com) joined #forth 07:26:59 --- quit: PoppaVic ("bbiab") 07:52:28 --- join: PoppaVic (n=pete@0-2pool238-48.nas24.chicago4.il.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth 08:19:13 --- quit: virsys ("bah") 08:19:36 --- join: virsys (n=virsys@or-65-40-181-76.dyn.sprint-hsd.net) joined #forth 08:24:59 hmmpf.. *sigh* Folks that just stand back and wave their " is a terrible, DOOMED language" signs tend to peeve me. 08:25:58 how about people who just stand back and wave their is a terrible language and i wish it was doomed signs 08:26:18 more wannabe's 08:29:51 how about " is semantically overcomplicated and in the end that hamperes the usability of the language in an enterprise environment despite its large pool of programmers" 08:29:59 which languages? 08:30:12 --- quit: virsys (Remote closed the connection) 08:30:27 forth, C. 08:30:28 virl: i personally hate c++ and any derivatives (java, c#) 08:30:55 they lurk about, then wave the sign - but rarely, VERY rarely can make suggestions or provide answers 08:32:16 i hate people who prefer the overcomplex behemoths of languages 08:32:39 so you hate C++ 08:32:44 oh yeah 08:33:24 and I like it. I like also languages which are very simple. 08:34:13 how can you like c++ 08:34:16 gah 08:34:28 you can't even predict accurately which order the dtors get called in half of the time 08:35:11 because of the oop extension ;-) 08:35:35 so? plenty of languages have oop 08:35:41 C++ is NOT an EXTENSION 08:35:51 hahahaha 08:36:06 oh sh 08:36:14 --- join: virsys (n=virsys@or-65-40-181-76.dyn.sprint-hsd.net) joined #forth 08:36:18 and because I'm not one of the stupid c++ coders which use the oop feature too much. 08:38:09 PoppaVic, I didn't say that C++ is an extension. 08:38:31 "oop extension" 08:39:57 Yeah, I am definitely making progress.. Quite slowly. THe problem is low-down, and extends all theway up. Worse, it's pandemic. 08:42:51 C++ = C + OOP + other new cool features(templates/better typedefs/etc) 08:43:22 no 08:43:29 templates is not a cool feature i hate to tell you 08:43:51 C is still not a part of it. C-features/keywords, I might buy 08:44:12 It's an entirely separate language 08:44:13 i like c++ comments 08:44:15 thats it 08:44:31 similar to saying "PS is forth" 08:44:48 or that ANY "foo-forth is forth" 08:44:48 postscript 08:45:13 I don't see what's your problem 08:45:27 semantics, leading to mindsets 08:46:22 You can't even insure a C++ compiler will politely compile C source, and assuredly not as C would. 08:46:23 mindsets? 08:47:05 "looking like" something doesn't MAKE that thing the "same as". It's really hard to convince folks of this. 08:47:06 you say hate people who hate your languages, so why do the same with me? 08:47:14 do you 08:47:44 huh? I never said that, goddamnit. Less coffee, more beer or valium, geezus 08:47:58 c++ compilers have to compile c properly 08:48:30 considering that C is a subset of C++ 08:48:37 wrong warp 08:48:44 not wrong 08:50:31 It's convenient to daily believe that, but: it's no more true than a char[] or char* "is a string" 08:50:56 what are you on 08:51:10 c is not a proper subset of c++ 08:51:16 are you sure? 08:51:22 try naming a variable 'new' in c and compiling it with c++ 08:51:30 thanks - I knew some older, experienced folks would wake up ;-) 08:52:13 PoppaVic, please die 08:52:17 enums also don't get implicitly cast to ints, tho some c++ compilers can be forgiving about it 08:52:19 not g++ tho 08:52:25 sproingie: oh hmm good example 08:52:39 The fact is, sure: you COULD generate a C++ish system which delimited a C-subset 08:52:57 yah but why would you want to 08:53:01 well i got disproven handily 08:53:04 I hate it everytime when you think you need screw other people because of their other thoughts. 08:53:29 virl: I'd orginally considered you almost sentient, but I really get tired of the little-kid behavior/comments. 08:54:19 sproingie: the only reason I could envision would be for a system BEYOND C or C++ - and I doubt anyone can come up with a dencet reason or solution. 08:55:07 sproingie: i didn't realize that enums were implicity cast to anything ever 08:55:08 beyond C++ .... how about lisp ;) 08:55:13 or perhaps ocaml 08:55:29 nonono - I'm not that twisted ;-) 08:55:32 warpzero: enums are just ints with names in C. doesn't usually even warn you when it casts 'em 08:55:49 enum arithmetic is all over many C programs, C++ forbids it 08:55:59 yeah, enums are conveniences - but act a shitload like a set of #defines 08:56:10 yeah well gcc doesn't warn me when i implicity cast void* to char* in C but sun CC does 08:57:19 sun != solaris != linux != freebsd, etc - platforms are a whore - switching compilers is worse 08:57:27 gotta mosey on out 08:57:33 laters 08:57:36 later everyone. don't kill each other while i'm away 08:57:45 hahaha 08:57:46 lol 08:58:06 after all, i'd prefer to watch it ;) 08:58:06 PoppaVic: you don't have to tell me that 08:58:09 I can't be that affected by kids anymore ;-) 08:58:19 * sproingie & 08:58:28 PoppaVic: everything you do is affected 08:58:36 -> BURN <- 08:58:40 -> BURN <- 08:58:46 -> BURN <- 08:58:48 did you see that 08:58:51 that was intense 08:58:52 love the smell of burning chatrooms in the morning :P 08:59:01 I prefer napalm 08:59:07 or a FAE 08:59:28 as long as you don't burn the bacon 08:59:54 --- join: Amanita_Virosa (n=jenni@CPE0000e812679b-CM000a7362da55.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 09:00:22 yeah, the only thing worse than burned bacon is wet, limp bacon 09:00:31 true 09:00:48 i prefer mine almost burned. 09:00:52 some people like it that way, just barely warmed up (or not) 09:01:20 PoppaVic: (you used affected instead of effected, they're different words you know) 09:01:45 i think 09:01:47 fuck 09:01:51 i think i'm wrong nevermind 09:02:01 hehe spellcheck next time why don't ya 09:02:25 affected is right in that context, but yeah they're different words 09:03:03 well its still a valid burn i feel 09:03:06 even though i fail on syntax 09:03:09 thesaurus are your friend 09:03:13 hahaha 09:03:20 what 09:03:25 would that be thesauri? 09:03:31 thesauruses are your friends 09:03:43 so what did i walk into the middle of? 09:03:43 docl: this isn't latin :-/ 09:03:56 walrii, thesaurii, octupii 09:04:33 and, never forget: dufii 09:04:44 virii :P 09:04:58 evilii? :P 09:05:14 dufii, ouch 09:05:22 hehehe 09:05:33 fungi! :) 09:05:47 hey, I'm a fun guy 09:06:00 <--- named after a mushroom. 09:06:32 heh, virosa is a real species? 09:06:36 yep 09:07:07 don't take it personal, it was merely tossed out 09:07:19 hehe 09:08:02 holy crap 09:08:04 thesaurus (plural thesauri) 09:08:10 heheh 09:08:29 have you guys seen the new retroforth editor? 09:08:48 whoever said that wins 09:08:49 yeah just one i on most of them I think 09:09:11 except evilii, that's just neat. 09:09:18 oh yeah 09:10:31 * Amanita_Virosa has a strange sense of humor. 09:11:29 there's a new extension of RetroEditor out with a cursor 09:11:39 Amanita_Virosa: Hi! 09:11:40 http://retroforth.org/wiki/?id=REM 09:11:54 hello ceearr 09:13:00 Amanita_Virosa: hows life? 09:13:04 decent. 09:13:12 spidroomey as usual. 09:33:41 --- quit: danniken (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 09:38:29 little kids behavior? 09:38:50 huh? 09:40:59 what did PoppaVic mean with that? 09:41:02 we're nor kids, we're duffii :P 09:41:13 hehehe 09:41:45 he means he's had too much coffee and needs to calm down 09:42:16 colon semicolon 09:43:52 C,Forth,C++ are ok, but Java, VB, and other languages which fits into that pattern are evil. 09:44:08 fit into what pattern? 09:44:15 see we all agree that forth is good 09:44:36 of course :) 09:44:50 i designed a cpu with a 4-bit instruction word that was about half-way between forth and brainf*ck 09:45:05 well actually, it was a 32-bit instruction word, but it carried 8 instructions in each word 09:45:11 and it was only addressable on word boundaries :P 09:45:40 I never said that forth or generally languages which works face-to-face with the underlying hardware are bad. 09:46:21 mmmm, assembler. 09:47:19 of course, but it depends which instruction set. 09:47:58 when I look at the x86 instruction set, I feel like I would look at the instruction set of the java vm. 09:48:16 oh come on. x86 has a very forth-friendly instruction set 09:48:23 it could use a few more gpregs, but otherwise it's a dream 09:48:33 especially for an optimizing native-code stc forth 09:49:33 Amanita_Virosa: for a non-optimized forth, I'd prefer x86, but for an optimized one, another RISC like MIPS or something :) 09:49:52 it's very bloated, but you are right, sometimes it's nice. 09:50:20 it's a bit bloatish, but it has its uses 09:50:32 ceearr - maybe... but x86 is actually pretty well tuned for a heavily optimizing forth 09:50:44 especially when I'd like get sin or cos, because that is iirc embedded into the FPU instruction set. 09:51:07 my native code generator could compile a swap or a dup or an over to ZERO instructions :P 09:51:14 at the moment I can't see such a forth, I only see slow forths. 09:51:17 i was always pretty proud of that. 09:52:39 is retroforth a slow forth? 09:53:36 sadly, yes. it is minimal faster than gforth. 09:54:07 what is slowing it down? 09:54:16 I don't know. 09:54:18 asm ;-) 09:54:27 bad asm 09:54:39 docl: the lack of optimization, although I wanted to write an optional optimizing compiler 09:55:13 #asm-nuts want "purity", ##C folks KNOW shit is likely to optimize behind their backs - and theyexpect optimizers to improve 09:55:15 would it be unportable with optimization? 09:55:26 --- join: ramkrsna_ (n=ramkrsna@61.2.69.146) joined #forth 09:55:28 forth is virtually never portable. 09:55:43 FIG was portable for decades 09:56:04 your mom was portable for decades but not anymore if you know what i mean 09:56:11 interestingly enough, it was committee'sthat mulched that 09:56:36 well... forth portability is sorta tricky that way 09:56:42 even fig requires a small native core 09:57:08 yep, everything needs a small vm 09:57:36 well retro runs lots of oses. but with anything useful you need syscalls or dlls or whatever the os uses 09:57:53 yeppers 09:57:54 heh. one of my forths was just self-booting on x86 09:57:58 wasn't really optimizing tho 09:58:21 the prob is/was: forth still wants to be The OS+SHell 09:58:46 yeah, everything needs a vm. and me builds one, and PoppaVic would hate me for that. 09:59:27 i like forth. it's fun to write from scratch 09:59:48 i also like postscript. neat little script language. i'm part-way through writing a general-purpose PS script system. 09:59:57 postscript is to forth what php is to C. 10:00:38 ps is a forthish machine - no suprise 10:00:53 ps is a much higher level language, but very forthish in nature 10:01:09 it's really to forth what php is to c. that's the best way i can put it. 10:01:20 is it useful to write from scratch? 10:01:47 useful to write what from scratch? a forth? 10:02:09 docl: a forth-engine? Ediucational, at the least. 10:02:09 well if you have to write everything in scratch there's a point of diminishing returns 10:02:23 i don't know, i write everything from scratch 10:02:29 i have a self-booting mod player around somewhere :p 10:02:34 oh, you mean reinvent all the wheels? Not really. 10:02:51 i love reinventing all the wheels. a couple times, i've ended up inventing rockets instead. 10:02:58 docl: translators would be useful, of course 10:03:37 well if you have something reusable, it can be more valuable in the long run 10:03:58 but then, if you write it from scratch you learn more and can make it more powerful 10:04:00 yeppers: and if well-phrased, translation won't be too tough or take too big a hit 10:04:12 i've got all sorts of fun stuff from scratch 10:04:28 docl: reinventing the wheel for fun or school is fine, daily??? Hourly? 10:04:30 everything from ffts to splines to sse-optimised alphablending to audio mixing... 10:04:49 to database engines to operating systems to compilers... 10:04:56 to CPUs :P 10:05:16 * Amanita_Virosa is far, far too geeky for her own good. 10:05:24 hehe 10:06:19 reinventing the wheel 10:06:58 i have really nice wheels. 10:07:16 There comes a point you want your own "library" to act like it, and to may have external expectations. 10:07:49 oh, and - replacing a mobo shouldn't take you a week or month 10:07:52 when do you have an external expectations? 10:08:07 when it doesn't run without something. 10:08:33 my libraries are getting pretty close to doing everything. i like it. 10:09:05 you need a generic interface for that, so you could replace the library behind it without problems. 10:09:37 nah, i just remove the library behind it 10:09:43 i have my own atoi routines, my own malloc... 10:10:08 i use only the most bare interface... i replaced sdl's audio connection with my own os's sound driveer for my self-booting mod player. 10:10:16 when you remove the lib behind it, it doesn't work after it. 10:11:50 or you inline a layer for compatiblity. *cough* 10:12:19 i'm in the process of designing my own compiler so that i don't have to be compatible with anything else again :P 10:12:30 but that's after my rdbms. 10:12:33 * PoppaVic chortles 10:13:26 the sick part is just how much of that code actually works. 10:14:17 hm, ok. 10:15:10 I'm designing a vm too, but one which provides a generic lib interface for portable code. 10:15:29 any code i wrote ports so easily that i don't really bother anymore 10:15:46 it's all plugabble, reusable modules 10:15:50 and switching languages is easy anyway 10:16:02 anyhow, now i'm just rambling. 10:16:32 and what did you code? can I see your fantastic code anywhere? 10:16:51 sure 10:17:04 a few variations of my os: http://caladan.nanosoft.ca/cyvos.php 10:17:11 a game i wrote: http://caladan.nanosoft.ca/c4/software/bugout.php 10:17:38 some fun hardware: http://caladan.nanosoft.ca/c4/diy/fc.php 10:17:56 my old-generation mod player: http://caladan.nanosoft.ca/xmod2.php 10:19:22 yeah, every code could be simply ported. but does that make sense? 10:19:51 there's only a few lines in my code that tends to need porting. 10:19:59 most of it compiles flawlessly 10:20:06 and there's fallbacks for things like the inline assembly 10:20:21 or does it make sense, that someone can't implemented easily a vm? 10:20:28 it's easier to take my library routines from project to project than it is to link against a myriad of different system libs. 10:20:40 arg... 10:20:53 I never said that! 10:20:58 never said what? 10:21:22 that you need to link that f*ing libs to the fucking system libs. 10:21:41 arg. groar. fuck fuck 10:21:53 * virl needs to calm down. 10:22:30 i'm confused 10:22:33 * Amanita_Virosa ducks out :P 10:29:34 and what do you think I'm doing? because you did the whole lines since yet argumenting, that you don't need this fucking system libs. do you think that my designs needs that? or what the shit!? 10:30:03 what? 10:30:46 what?! 10:31:06 hey dude calm down 10:31:06 lol 10:31:08 i don't understand what you're saying 10:32:10 neither do i 10:33:48 assume virl is a volatile-rugrat and assume ALL you say will tick him off.. Go from there 10:36:22 Anyway, I need to chow and chill. Talk to you all tomorrow... 10:36:28 --- quit: PoppaVic ("calls it a Knight") 10:36:49 grr.. so a rude person. 10:37:20 yes he is. 10:37:45 and he isn't better 10:38:03 hmm try cutting back on the expletives, people will be more likely to be nice. 10:38:06 nope 10:38:19 Amanita_Virosa: by the way, virl was pissed at poppavic not you :) 10:39:12 oh okay 10:39:15 that's good. 10:40:06 I don't know if PoppaVic would be nice even if you weren't using expletives though 10:40:47 seems like heavily optimized code is harder to port, isn't it? 10:40:53 poppavic isnt nice :) 10:41:13 he is most of the time an a**** 10:41:13 he reminds me of i440r sometimes :P (exccept that i440r is a nice guy) 10:41:27 depends on the type of heavily optimized code. 10:45:18 so Amanita_Virosa you weren't attacking my VM design, were you? 10:45:32 no 10:45:37 i was just rambling about my code. 10:47:01 --- join: slava (n=slava@CPE0080ad77a020-CM000e5cdfda14.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth 10:48:59 everyone who codes likes their own stuff, even if they know there's more advanced or efficient things out there 10:50:32 sure. except that my malloc() has a memory overhead of only 8% instead of the usual 25-50% and is amortized constant time 10:50:32 for most of us, it's just a thrill to see that it works 10:50:44 my palette optimizer rivals that of photoshop 10:50:46 hehe 10:51:02 xmod3 is one of the best sounding mod players... 10:51:06 and now i'm just bragging and i'll shut up 10:51:06 can I run it instead of photoshop? 10:51:20 no... it's just a palette optimizer. it saves a nice gif tho. 10:51:48 --- quit: swalters (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 10:51:59 my memory manager has a 1-word overhead per object, and allocates memory by incrementing a pointer 10:52:25 slava - mine can actually free memory. 10:52:31 my extension of REM lets me use tetris keys 10:52:41 Amanita_Virosa, so can mine, its a GC 10:52:52 eeek, a gc. 10:53:10 ack 10:53:45 i've never seen it account for more than 1-3% of total runtime 10:54:14 sure... gc appologists have been saying similar things for ages 10:54:19 and in some situations it's even true 10:54:24 i prefer a nice predictable time 10:54:32 although in some very strange case a gc could be useful, but that case I don't know. does someone know that case? 10:54:40 I'm terrible. I took 6 mneumonic keys and aliased over them so that uio and jkl let me navigate the blockfiles in a 3d sort of way 10:54:55 GC is useful in any case 10:55:27 i don't know... gc is only appropriate for some language subtypes. 10:55:55 GC makes it easier to write stable code 10:56:20 i suppose. i hardly ever have those types of problems. 10:56:21 when you show me 100^100^100^100^100^100 such cases I could believe it. 10:56:36 lol 10:56:46 gc is a matter of personal taste 10:56:49 and i don't have a taste for it :P 10:56:54 as with anything 10:56:56 besides, it's a pain in C. 10:57:01 yeah, but C sucks ;) 10:57:18 nah, C is fast. 10:57:34 so is Common Lisp, Ocaml, etc. but they are nicer than C 10:57:47 i'm sooo not touching that. 10:58:17 ok, slava comes from the lisp direction of computing, so no wonder that he says that. 10:59:07 retroforth is fast 10:59:22 but it could be much faster... 10:59:30 my language is faster, and it has dynamic types and GC :) 10:59:33 i wrote a super-optimizing forth code generator a while back... 10:59:37 but it was written in C. 10:59:44 factor is faster than retro? 10:59:57 docl: probably 11:00:01 the latest CVS is, yes 11:00:04 is it as flexible? or anywhere near as small? 11:00:20 no its not small, the image is ~4mb, what do you mean by 'flexible' 11:01:03 well there's like 9 different images on the site 11:01:21 i don't know. i find whenever someone finds a case where C doesn't compare favorably, they're looking at some horrible multigigabyte bloated monstrosity of spaghetti with meatballs laden in bells whistles and gongs, cruft and bugs... 11:01:25 i've ported to x86 and powerpc with various OSes (linux, freebsd, windows, mac os) 11:01:28 I couldn't get factor to compile on my machine 11:01:34 now it comes to the tragic side, that retro gets brushed away from gc language 11:01:35 are you using gcc 3.3? 11:01:54 not sure 11:01:58 gcc 3.3 has bugs 11:02:04 yeah 3.3.5 11:02:16 please pack a binary for linux 11:02:41 i tried making one statically linked with SDL libraries, but it didn't work 11:02:42 i hate ld 11:02:43 i'm working on my own compiler 11:02:48 but it's on the backburner until my rdbms is working 11:02:58 rdbms? 11:03:01 i have my own compiler too, but a few things (like the GC :) are written in C 11:03:08 i did write a nice mp3 streaming server (like shoutcast or icecast) tho :P 11:03:24 virl - relational database mangement system. 11:04:47 like mysql, eh? 11:04:47 does it use sql? 11:04:47 retro has blockfiles 11:05:04 docl - no, not like mysql, like postgresql :P 11:05:24 virl - i'm not really looking at the query layer at the moment... i'm working on the transaction layer. in theory, yes. 11:05:33 the transaction layer is designed... i just need to finish it. 11:05:35 got lots of projects to do :P 11:05:40 aren't they the same thing? 11:06:09 hehehe. sorta. 11:07:10 slava: I wonder if crc copied you in naming the handbook "handbook.pdf" :P 11:08:27 he can copy the whole handbook if he wants to, its BSD licensed ;) 11:08:56 not and keep it public domain! 11:09:16 pd all the way, yeah 11:17:08 what kinds of bugs does gcc 3.3 have that stops factor from working? 11:17:31 i use a register to hold a global variable 11:17:34 this is a gcc extension 11:17:39 (data stack pointer in ESI) 11:17:47 but 3.3 refuses to compile this, and dumps as weird internal compiler error 11:17:57 arg 11:18:16 maybe I should try a downgrade 11:18:23 upgrade to 3.4 or 4.0 11:18:58 wait, there's a 3.4 on the cd 11:19:17 I got the entire debian stable on 2 dvds 11:19:29 i'm using debian stable too 11:20:06 cool 11:20:27 hey, it compiled with 3.4 :) 11:20:32 i use 3.4 11:21:16 ehm, docl, could you so friendly and compile it static and give it to me? 11:21:33 sure 11:21:44 virl, dynamic should work 11:21:50 all i link with is libc, libm, and libdl 11:21:51 do I need to change the makefile? 11:21:58 i can upload my binaries 11:22:24 actually, docl should do it, so that you get the stable 0.76 and not whatever untested shit i have in my tree right now 11:22:38 is the "f" file what you need? 11:22:53 and factor.image 11:23:16 ok 11:23:27 --- quit: saon ("Lost terminal") 11:23:36 did you make one? 11:23:38 ./f boot.image.le32 11:24:01 oh ok 11:24:28 it's building one now 11:25:07 is it supposed to take a while? 11:25:23 yes, 5-10 minutes on a fast machine 11:25:41 yikes, what kind of a program is this? 11:25:52 --- join: saon (i=1000@c-66-177-224-235.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) joined #forth 11:27:44 why? what is it doing docl? 11:28:05 taking like 10 minutes to do a compile 11:28:43 for what? 11:28:45 maybe it's optimized in running, but this is a rather slow make process 11:29:03 the compiler itself is slow, this will be addressed over time 11:29:26 so I can still be a proud retroforther :) 11:29:39 bootstrap is only done once, though ;) 11:29:55 after that you can reload code and replace definitions as much as you want (unlike forth where new definitions shadow old ones) 11:30:28 ok, my vm/compiler will be faster.. it will or I'll kill it. 11:30:40 you saying this feature is not in any forth, or just not *usually* in forths 11:30:47 usually in forths 11:30:53