00:00:00 --- log: started forth/06.04.19
00:10:33 * JasonWoof /ignores lilo
00:13:47 * ayrnieu struggles to understand why gforth doesn't want to start
00:14:32 <JasonWoof> what platform?
00:14:40 <ayrnieu> OpenBSD/x86
00:14:56 <JasonWoof> huh
00:15:14 <JasonWoof> I thought tho whole point of gforth was that it works everywhere
00:15:28 <ayrnieu> OpenBSD is a difficult platform, sometimes.-
00:15:59 <segher_> gforth has issues everywhere the last few years
00:16:16 <segher_> it's fighting the C compiler -- and that's a lost fight, in the end
00:16:26 <ayrnieu> ah, too bad.
00:16:28 --- quit: Quartus (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
00:16:51 <ayrnieu> this distresses me, but I can try something else.
00:17:06 <segher_> it _works_ most everywhere still though
00:17:18 <segher_> what's the exact problem you are seeing?
00:18:21 <ayrnieu> ./gforth-itc: Cannot allocate memory ; and a crash during compilation on: GFORTHD="./gforth-ditc -p .:." GFORTH="./gforth-ditc --die-on-signal -p .:. -i kernl32l.fi -e 3 exboot.fs startup.fs arch/386/asm.fs arch/386/disasm.fs" ./gforthmi gforth.fi  --die-on-signal -p ".:~+:." -i kernl32l.fi -e 3 exboot.fs startup.fs arch/386/asm.fs arch/386/disasm.fs  -- and then: data offset=-5713F20
00:19:23 <ayrnieu> I haven't tried very hard to make it work; it's not uncommon for systems that try to be very clever with memory to have difficulty under OpenBSD.
00:19:25 <segher_> trace where that "Cannot allocate memory" came from
00:19:53 <segher_> sounds like a wrong assumption about how memory alloc proceeds in the gforth code
00:20:32 <ayrnieu> gforth doesn't do anything interesting up to the exit by syscalls: a bunch of mprotect, sigprocmask, munmap
00:20:37 <segher_> heh.  try porting code that uses "posix threads" to openbsd.  heh.
00:20:56 <segher_> yes, but look at the actual gforth code
00:21:19 <segher_> it probably expects some allocs to be at higher addresses than previous allocs.  or something like that
00:21:45 <ayrnieu> ah.  For now, I'll just use something.
00:22:08 <segher_> or, an allocated address to be a positive number, when converted to integer
00:22:50 <segher_> converting addresses to numbers is icky in C always...  and to _signed_ numbers is just wrong
00:23:17 <segher_> don't give up -- just fix the bug :-)
00:23:47 <ayrnieu> sorry :-)
00:24:11 <segher_> hey, it will bring you eternal fame!
00:24:20 <segher_> babes in heaven, etc
00:34:56 <virl> hi
00:35:13 <virl> ping
00:37:05 <ayrnieu> hello virl
00:37:43 <virl> problems with gforth?
00:40:51 <ayrnieu> only what I mentioned.
00:42:33 <virl> good luck
00:43:35 <ayrnieu> I'm fond of gforth, but I don't need it right now; thanks though.
00:49:26 <virl> I'm asking myself what it does for memory allocations that that happens
01:05:48 --- join: Quartus (n=trailer@CPE0001023f6e4f-CM013349902843.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #forth
01:09:02 --- join: Ray_work (n=Raystm2@adsl-68-90-192-85.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth
01:09:02 --- quit: Ray-work (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
05:16:28 --- quit: virl ("Verlassend")
05:18:05 --- join: virl (n=virl@62.178.85.149) joined #forth
05:26:04 --- quit: virl (Remote closed the connection)
05:35:18 --- join: PoppaVic (n=pete@0-1pool47-141.nas30.chicago4.il.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth
05:47:16 --- join: virl (n=virl@62.178.85.149) joined #forth
05:49:10 --- join: timlarson_ (n=timlarso@65.116.199.19) joined #forth
06:13:09 <virl> hi timlarson_ 
06:13:14 <timlarson_> hi
06:15:41 <virl> what's hanging?
06:18:30 <timlarson_> pondering forth, lisp, table-oriented-programming, and other orthogonal topics.
06:22:01 --- quit: madwork ("?OUT OF DATA  ERROR")
06:23:08 <virl> I try to imagine how I should implement the xell api in pix.
06:23:08 --- join: madwork (n=foo@derby.metrics.com) joined #forth
06:46:03 --- join: Cheery (i=Henri@a81-197-61-21.elisa-laajakaista.fi) joined #forth
06:56:30 <PoppaVic> I'm cogitating syscall-like dispatchers, versus 100's of func-proto.
07:09:03 --- quit: Raystm2_ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
07:09:41 --- join: Raystm2 (n=Raystm2@adsl-68-93-112-229.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth
07:28:59 --- join: domino-24 (n=domino@host86-132-215-57.range86-132.btcentralplus.com) joined #forth
07:53:09 --- join: Al2O3 (n=Al2O3@pool-71-240-167-96.dllstx.fios.verizon.net) joined #forth
08:15:38 --- quit: domino-24 ("Leaving")
09:26:38 <PoppaVic> SOB... goddamnit, we are getting close - naturally the "interested parties" are gone. Fuck.
09:32:36 --- quit: PoppaVic ("Pulls the pin...")
09:33:52 --- join: PoppaVic (n=pete@0-1pool46-100.nas30.chicago4.il.us.da.qwest.net) joined #forth
09:37:09 --- quit: timlarson_ (Operation timed out)
09:39:46 --- join: T0paz (n=top@spc1-horn1-6-0-cust77.cosh.broadband.ntl.com) joined #forth
09:42:44 --- join: timlarson_ (n=timlarso@65.116.199.19) joined #forth
09:50:17 --- quit: PoppaVic ("Pulls the pin...")
10:13:10 --- quit: T0paz (Client Quit)
10:26:44 <JasonWoof> virl: what's pix again?
10:30:29 <virl> portable implementation of xell(=pix)
10:31:12 <JasonWoof> portable meaning written in C so it runs on desktops?
10:31:39 <virl> yes, it's written in C and should run on desktops.
10:31:56 <JasonWoof> cool
10:32:20 <JasonWoof> do you have some sort of xell api spec?
10:33:04 <virl> I have some parts of it.
10:34:05 <virl> I'm currently working at it.
10:37:56 <JasonWoof> cool
10:38:01 <JasonWoof> I need to write a spec for fovium
10:38:06 <JasonWoof> people keep asking me about fovium
10:38:13 <virl> but probably my header file is the consistent one.
10:38:23 <JasonWoof> heh
10:38:52 <JasonWoof> yeah, it's tricky to make the bit in english be the one that's correct
10:38:58 <JasonWoof> unit tests should help with that though
10:42:25 <virl> if you are interested I could past something of it in one of those paste services, where I currently don't know an adress
10:45:53 <virl> but it's a installation site
10:45:59 <virl> an
10:46:11 <slava> why don't you merge pix with fovium?
10:46:47 <virl> JasonWoof,  http://pastebin.com/669704
10:47:06 <virl> ehm, why?
10:48:01 <slava> because you have the same goals
10:48:31 <virl> does fovium have the same goals, JasonWoof? what are the goals of fovium?
10:50:20 <JasonWoof> the goal of fovium is to create a simple, consistant, stack-based runtime environment which will run code exactly the same on all major desktop systems
10:50:42 <JasonWoof> ie a complete virtual machine
10:51:40 <JasonWoof> in particular it is designed to support my Fronds project (which is to make an emersive, habituated computer interface)
10:52:07 <JasonWoof> fovium is currently implemented in C
10:52:23 <JasonWoof> but it's pretty simple, and should be no problem to implement in other things (like asm)
10:52:29 <JasonWoof> as soon as I make the spec
10:52:44 <JasonWoof> also, implementers could do cool things like jit
10:55:55 --- join: Intoxicator (n=l@159-134-144-116.as1.mvw.galway.eircom.net) joined #forth
10:59:37 <virl> pix target is to provide a) a reference implementation of xell b) a compilation environment c) a reference implementation of flux(=framework for languages using xell) d) creating desktop apps/unoptimized games/webapps
10:59:57 <JasonWoof> so even though fovium is a VM which I generally think of as being interpreted, it could be implemented with a good jit and run the code blazingly fast
11:00:29 <JasonWoof> enth/flux is an existing forth OS
11:00:40 <virl> oh?
11:01:42 <Intoxicator> lol
11:01:57 --- quit: Al2O3 (Remote closed the connection)
11:05:54 <virl> that's shit, but ok, who cares.
11:08:36 <virl> is there a current version of fovium?
11:09:20 <JasonWoof> huh?
11:09:42 <JasonWoof> I'd have to say that there are both out-of-date and current versions :)
11:10:19 <virl> ok, well, where is the current version of it?
11:10:31 <JasonWoof> I don't know if the tarballs are terribly up to date
11:10:37 <JasonWoof> jasonwoof.org/fovium
11:11:24 <virl> oh.. an april joke
11:11:34 <JasonWoof> someone break my wiki again?
11:11:43 <JasonWoof> no
11:11:45 <JasonWoof> where's hte joke?
11:12:17 <virl> sry, a brain fart, because it's from the first april ;-)
11:12:29 <JasonWoof> what is?
11:12:38 <JasonWoof> oh, the tarball
11:12:42 <JasonWoof> hadn't noticed
11:12:50 <JasonWoof> that's funny :)
11:13:21 <JasonWoof> that's pretty current then :) I don't think I've changed fovium at all this month
11:15:59 <virl> whoo, cool, so what is fronds exactly?
11:17:23 <JasonWoof> OS
11:17:26 <JasonWoof> computer interface
11:17:35 <JasonWoof> colored forth IDE
11:18:11 <virl> it's fine
11:18:21 <JasonWoof> what's fine?
11:18:27 <virl> fovium
11:18:39 <JasonWoof> fovium comes with a copy of fronds if you want to give it a whirl
11:18:56 <JasonWoof> it's quite incomplete
11:19:03 <JasonWoof> and I'm not sure I wrote down how to use it
11:19:34 <JasonWoof> hmmm... nope
11:20:12 <JasonWoof> kinda hard to check it out if you don't know how to use it
11:21:31 <virl> it's for me like using colorforth, a little bit. both not really/not documented
11:21:49 <JasonWoof> ok, ok, I'll write docs :)
11:21:58 <JasonWoof> yeah, colorforth is pretty bad that way
11:22:12 <JasonWoof> I'm not sure how you're supposed to be able to use it
11:22:48 <JasonWoof> in the case of fovium/fronds I just tossed the image in there so I could tell people to run it, and so you could see if/that fovium was working
11:23:24 <virl> the ones who can use colorforth for something useable like a bot, those guys receive my respect.
11:30:51 --- quit: Intoxicator ("It takes a big man to cry, but it takes a bigger man to laugh at that man.")
11:40:20 <JasonWoof> ok, started writing the spec, and now I'm out of time
11:40:29 <JasonWoof> but getting started is good...
11:40:36 <JasonWoof> now I'm much more likely to finish it soon
12:16:15 --- quit: Cheery (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
12:18:13 --- join: snoopy_1711 (i=snoopy_1@84.58.180.197) joined #forth
12:21:35 --- quit: Snoopy42 (Nick collision from services.)
12:21:58 --- nick: snoopy_1711 -> Snoopy42
12:24:44 <virl> JasonWoof, for what is exactly the flag stack?
12:25:25 <virl> well, from that point I think that pix and fovium can't be merged, because of the different architecture.
12:58:34 <timlarson_> so what is xell?
12:59:49 <arke> We need a bot in here that tells me that she loves me.
13:00:47 <timlarson_> fovium, pix, flux, etc. were described but what is xell?
13:01:11 <arke> virl's forth, I think
13:01:23 <arke> JasonWoof: can I have fovium specs please? :)
13:13:30 <virl> timlarson_, xell is a forthish bytecode language, pix is the portable implementation of it and flux is a framework which defines libs, comandline arguments, config files and so on.
13:17:12 <timlarson_> ah, that makes more sense now :)
13:27:15 --- quit: timlarson_ ("Leaving")
13:28:57 <virl> and at the moment I would it really please when somebody would give me feedback about it
14:36:14 <virl> ping
14:40:40 <crc> pong
14:43:49 <virl> hi crc
14:57:46 --- join: GoHst10 (i=WINNT@12-208-98-237.client.insightBB.com) joined #forth
16:02:32 <JasonWoof> arke: when I finish writing it :) so far I just wrote an intro a few hours ago
16:02:47 <JasonWoof> virl: the flag stack stores true/false values
16:02:56 <JasonWoof> it's used by comparison operators and conditional branches
16:03:38 <JasonWoof> these words push the flag stack: ? > < = etc
16:04:02 <JasonWoof> and these pop it: if ?; etc
16:07:48 <JasonWoof> guess the pops make more sense in terms of instructions. conditional branches and conditional returns
16:13:10 <virl> why a separate stack?
16:14:47 <JasonWoof> it was just an experiment
16:14:49 <JasonWoof> tathi's idea
16:14:56 <JasonWoof> basically to get flags out of the way
16:15:20 <JasonWoof> seemed like passing flags around sometimes made stack juggling
16:15:46 * JasonWoof wanders off into the sunset with his new laptop to write the fovium spec
16:16:14 <JasonWoof> maybe I'll stay within range of the wifi though...
16:17:39 <virl> at the moment I don't know much circumstances where it would make a sense
16:18:19 <JasonWoof> it's a slightly different coding style.
16:18:47 <JasonWoof> the flag stack is cake to implement though
16:19:04 <JasonWoof> only uses one register and no memory
16:19:25 <JasonWoof> just uses individual bits in a 32-bit register
16:19:45 <virl> so it's shifted register, ah ok.
16:19:51 <JasonWoof> rotates
16:19:54 <JasonWoof> but yeah
16:20:37 <JasonWoof> ppc has loads of registers, so this seems like a logical thing to do
16:20:46 <JasonWoof> not sure how it is on x86
16:21:29 <virl> x86 is a typically, less registers, so you need to rock memory..
16:26:13 <JasonWoof> such crap
16:26:18 <JasonWoof> too bad it's taking over
16:28:04 <virl> yes, that's the reason why I don't like x86, to less registers, to much opcodes(CISC) and the resulting problems.
16:29:50 --- quit: GoHst10 (Remote closed the connection)
16:36:38 <JasonWoof> I had fun with ppc asm, but I don't think I'm going to learn x86 asm
16:36:47 <JasonWoof> too high level for an assembler
16:36:54 <JasonWoof> to low level for a generally useful language
16:41:28 <virl> in ppc I see that you have 31 registers, with 64 bits each, wow thats big.
16:42:03 <virl> and in x86 you have 4 registers with 32bits each, well..
16:43:26 <crc> virl: you have at least 6 useable registers on x86
16:43:49 <crc> and more, if you aren't interfacing with external libraries
16:44:09 <crc> and more if you make use of mmx, sse, and so on
16:44:20 <virl> ok ok ok .. 
16:45:17 <virl> but that is more tricky and ugly register use.
16:45:57 <crc> I've never found it limiting for a stack based programming model
16:47:33 <virl> stacks are mostly in memory...
16:48:04 <virl> but when you want it in hardware, so in registers... then I think it could be limiting
16:48:36 <JasonWoof> 32 general purpose registers
16:48:45 <crc> if you want the whole stack cached, then yes it can be very limiting
16:48:55 <JasonWoof> well, the zero register has a special meaning (zero) for a few instructions
16:49:07 <JasonWoof> then there's 32 float registers, 32 vector registers
16:49:15 <JasonWoof> and some special purpose registers
16:49:45 <virl> the float registers can be also used to cache a stack eh?
16:49:56 <crc> yes
16:50:05 <crc> eight digits deep
16:50:28 <JasonWoof> I wouldn't use the float registers to cache the stack
16:51:19 <JasonWoof> doesn't generally make sense to cache more than 3 or 4 stack items in registers anyway
16:57:40 <crc> I only cache TOS at present
16:58:59 <virl> I'm currently caching nothing.
16:59:55 <virl> it would be cool, but that's not portable... 
17:00:57 <crc> fair enough
17:03:55 <virl> I need to include in pix stack resizing.
17:04:23 <virl> that's a feature of xell for portable execution.
17:13:43 <JasonWoof> stack resizing?
17:13:47 <JasonWoof> at runtime?
17:14:06 <virl> ehm, yes.
17:14:59 <virl> you say the vm which cell size your program loves and the vm tries to fit that.
17:17:29 <JasonWoof> what cell sizes do you support?
17:26:12 <virl> I'm planning to support 1,2,4 and 8
17:26:30 <JasonWoof> impressive
17:32:47 <virl> impressive?
17:43:56 <JasonWoof> I started writing a specification for fovium. Here's what I have so far: http://jasonwoof.com/downloads/fovium-spec-2006-04-19.txt
17:44:36 <JasonWoof> It has an overview of how things work and details about the instruction encoding (with an example no less)
17:45:21 <JasonWoof> but so far no information about the instruction set, syscall mechanism or io
17:57:42 <virl> I think that this feature of xell is most likely to get wrong used.
18:08:30 --- join: easy4 (n=ez4@c-68-34-246-125.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth
18:32:53 --- quit: virl ("Verlassend")
18:36:27 --- quit: uiuiuiu (Remote closed the connection)
18:36:31 --- join: uiuiuiu (i=ian@dslb-084-056-234-019.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth
18:37:48 --- part: easy4 left #forth
19:03:37 --- join: virl (n=virl@chello062178085149.1.12.vie.surfer.at) joined #forth
22:03:28 --- join: IRCMonkey_ (n=chatzill@sub22-119.member.dsl-only.net) joined #forth
22:03:47 --- nick: IRCMonkey_ -> LOOP-HOG
22:47:14 --- join: Raystm2_ (n=Raystm2@adsl-68-95-254-38.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) joined #forth
22:51:27 --- quit: LOOP-HOG ("ChatZilla 0.9.61 [Mozilla rv:1.7.5/20041217]")
22:59:24 --- quit: JasonWoof ("off to bed")
23:04:18 --- quit: Raystm2 (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
23:16:48 --- join: segher (n=segher@dslb-084-056-140-006.pools.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth
23:24:39 --- quit: segher_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
23:36:29 --- quit: Quartus (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/06.04.19