00:00:00 --- log: started forth/06.07.03
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00:53:20 * ayrnieu writes a 'hello server'.  hm.
02:06:47 <ayrnieu> so... if I have a task A , and I activate that task in a word go-A-1 , and then activate that task /while it's still active in go-A-1/ in go-A-2 , A will continue in go-A-2
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02:32:08 <arke> ARGH
02:32:12 <arke> prissy C motherfuckers
02:32:54 <ASau> Dobryj denj, arke!
02:32:58 <ayrnieu> hm?
02:32:59 <arke> These C wizards piss me off .. you ask a simple question, and its "look in your C book" ... "its at home" ... "well, you shouldnt leave home without it if you still need to ask that question". All I asked was if a float->int conversion truncates or rounds
02:33:06 <arke> terve, ayrnieu 
02:33:08 <arke> err
02:33:10 <arke> terve ASau 
02:34:48 <ASau> One my friend, when asked "Why shouldn't I write that way?"
02:34:54 <ASau> answered:
02:35:28 <ASau> "Because, compiler works so, that changes may occur at any time."
02:36:07 <ASau> "What `at any time' means exactly, see in Standard."
02:39:05 <arke> :)
02:39:29 <ASau> When I asked those C wizards, if there's a standard saying
02:39:30 <ASau> where signed division rounds to (to zero or negative infinity),
02:39:30 <ASau> silence was an answer.
02:40:21 <ASau> Hm. "Silence was the answer"?
02:40:25 <ASau> How it's correct?
02:40:35 <ayrnieu> "the answer"
02:40:35 <arke> "silence was the answer" is correct.
02:40:45 <ASau> Thanks.
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03:01:56 <ASau> It looks like there's morning there.
03:02:05 <ASau> Dobry den, nighty!
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03:07:43 <ayrnieu> : mud-out ( s -- ) 1 mud-out-t pass begin dup recvbuf 4096 rot recv dup -1 = ?wouldblock 0= and if ." error: " errno@ error$ type cr stop then dup -1 = if drop else recvbuf swap type then pause again ;
03:08:38 <ASau> Brr.
03:08:43 <ayrnieu> still working on it.  But I'll continue later :-)
03:11:13 <ASau> ayrnieu: If you use ANS, why not use exceptions?
03:12:53 <tathi> ASau: float->int conversion in C truncates.
03:13:24 <ayrnieu> asau - where would I use exceptions?
03:13:49 <ASau> tathi: that was arke's question, anyway thanks.
03:14:20 <ASau> ayrnieu: When you test for error condition.
03:15:02 <ASau> For example: ... recv throw ...
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03:16:37 <ayrnieu> that just means that I'll have to these same checks somewhere else -- but there's nowhere to go; MUD-OUT is a begin ... again task that keeps printing what it reads from a socket until the read fails
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03:17:20 <ASau> And do all this "errno@ error$ type" after upper level "catch".
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03:18:14 <ayrnieu> there's no 'upper level'.  I could have mud-out call ' (mud-out) catch , and print the error there, but what's the benefit?
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03:19:34 <ASau> ayrnieu: :NONAME  BEGIN read THROW write AGAIN ; CATCH (BYE)
03:19:34 <ASau> You don't clutter source with all these error condition checks.
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03:19:59 <ayrnieu> it's cluttered because it's doing cluttery things :-/
03:20:09 <ASau> No, it is not.
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03:20:30 <ayrnieu> : (mud-out) begin dup recvbuf 4096 rot recv dup -1 = if ?wouldblock 0= throw drop else recvbuf swap type then pause again ;  : mud-out ' (mud-out) catch ." error: " errno@ error$ type cr stop ;
03:20:41 <ayrnieu> not quite.
03:21:03 <ayrnieu> : (mud-out) begin dup recvbuf 4096 rot recv dup -1 = if ?wouldblock 0= throw drop else recvbuf swap type then pause again ;  : mud-out ( s -- ) 1  mud-out-t pass ' (mud-out) catch ." error: " errno@ error$ type cr stop ;
03:21:39 <ASau> What returns "recv"?
03:22:00 <ASau> Err. What does "recv" return?
03:22:19 <ayrnieu> C recv ; the number of read bytes or -1
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03:23:00 <ayrnieu> on -1 , errno@ either returns EWOULDBLOCK (on this we just PAUSE and loop) or something else, which is an error.
03:23:02 <ASau> ... recv dup -1 = throw recvbuf swap type
03:23:31 <ayrnieu> ?wouldblock accomplishes that check.
03:23:31 <ASau> Hide all these things into recv.
03:23:33 <zpg> hmm, how do i test if the stack is empty to avoid underflow?
03:23:46 <ASau> depth 0=
03:23:59 <zpg> thanks
03:24:45 <ASau> ayrnieu: READ-FILE is done well enough, look at it.
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03:25:00 <ayrnieu> asau - no, read-file doesn't suffice.
03:25:11 <ASau> s/well/good/?
03:25:20 <ASau> Why?
03:25:46 <ayrnieu> asau - sockets aren't files, and pretending that they are only works part of the time.
03:27:06 <ayrnieu> I've had enough experience with copying parts of system-provided-libraries just to rip out the "convert socket to a file" part so that I could get sane behavior.
03:27:19 <ASau> BEGIN TRY ... recv THROW ... 0 RECOVER Exxx <> dup THROW ENDTRY UNTIL
03:28:57 <ayrnieu> I'm sure that I'll find a neater way to do this, particularly in the long run when I've written more networking programs with more mature and better factored lexicons, but for now I'm not going to bother with replacing messy tests with messy exceptions :-/
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06:56:34 <zpg> yikes, colorForth looks pretty complex
06:56:43 <zpg> (http://www.quartus.net/cgi-bin/twiki/view/Main/ColorForthHelloWorld)
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07:08:04 <tathi> eh.  more just that it has *zero* support for strings, and doesn't use ASCII
07:08:58 <zpg> yep, i read an interview with Chuck where he pretty much rejected the importance of strings/text
07:09:05 <PoppaVic> tathi: I always wondered how the poor bastard at the keyboard would enter "other than ascii"
07:09:24 <PoppaVic> zpg: "poorly" is how it would work
07:09:46 <PoppaVic> ..same issue, new reasons: they tried this with GUI early on
07:10:00 <zpg> hmm?
07:10:01 <tathi> zpg: yeah, well, Chuck apparently has the freedom to work on problems that don't involve interfacing with the outside world :)
07:10:11 * zpg chuckles
07:10:12 <zpg> indeed
07:10:20 * zpg observes the laughter pun and desists
07:10:25 <ASau> PoppaVic: I almost constantly enter other than ASCII.
07:10:25 <PoppaVic> Chuck is in his own universe, for sure.
07:11:00 <PoppaVic> ASau: great - and I don't run your code or look up your 'names'
07:11:30 <zpg> "text is pretty convenient" <-- case in point.
07:11:55 <zpg> the whole language / communication medium angle
07:12:07 <PoppaVic> I'm considering, in my latest mess, differentiating between input-strings and output.
07:12:22 <PoppaVic> ..it's a real issue, with the unifoo
07:13:42 <PoppaVic> it might even be a console/display/user issue - but you can't much play The Game when your kbd/scr won't enter or display shit w/o voodoo
07:17:13 <zpg> infinite regress
07:17:36 <PoppaVic> In my case, I want 100% ascii for words/wordlists. Reporting/display can be anything - I could care less.
07:18:40 <PoppaVic> when idiots then screw around with freaky utf-8 or unicode, they will hurt: either the shell rejects it, or the users will.
07:21:01 <PoppaVic> I don't really snuggle with C char-escapes, but they are preferable to trying to play games for every euro & asian symbol-table and semantics on the planet.
07:21:30 <ASau> I cannot afford using ASCII only.
07:21:40 <PoppaVic> that's nice
07:21:42 <ASau> I better refuse ASCII and use KOI.
07:22:04 <PoppaVic> whatever floats your boat. Specialization is like that.
07:22:47 <JasonWoof> I'm happy with ascii since it supports all the symbols on my keyboard
07:22:55 <JasonWoof> and I don't know languages that use other symbols
07:22:57 <PoppaVic> btw, I'd point out that 99.999% of keyboards/keypads are fixed-size and printed.
07:23:12 <PoppaVic> JasonWoof: and why would we care?
07:24:03 <PoppaVic> Once interpreted and compiled and execute-only: certainly the code won't
07:24:35 <PoppaVic> all the noise is about things like dialog-boxes and messages.
07:25:58 <PoppaVic> It's the _interaction_ interface that makes me run screaming from unishit and back to ascii.
07:26:35 <PoppaVic> oh, well - yeah: If I got dialogs in cyrilic or something, I'd get pissed.
07:30:33 <PoppaVic> JasonWoof: I can't even imagine the database size and complexity to xlate all the display-side and semantic-reorder for most languages. It'd be a bitchdog.
07:31:37 <PoppaVic> ..and slow? I suspect it would be - rewording and rephrasing, etc.
07:32:37 <PoppaVic> If I had to pick a fight with forthish, that's likely where I'd start - and Chuck speaks english.
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12:06:06 <ayrnieu> IAC, many of the interesting design decisions of ColorForth don't depend on Moore's particular setup.
12:07:07 <virl> hmm? isn't Chuck an english speaker?
12:07:11 <ayrnieu> Enth/Flux is probably good to look at for this.
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12:08:14 <ayrnieu> yes, he is; they're talking about something else.
12:09:32 <ayrnieu> the optimization bits about 'pre-compilation' don't interest me, but turning STATE into a jump table and encoding the interpreter instructions in whitespace -- that's not abhorrent.  That's not even difficult.
12:10:19 <JasonWoof> he doesn't precompile
12:10:21 <ayrnieu> and if you've decided to code in blocks, you've already given up editing your code with vi
12:10:32 <JasonWoof> he just encodes the text a bit
12:10:32 <ayrnieu> I don't remember what he does, but I heard a lot of discussion.  I've only used Flux
12:10:57 <JasonWoof> he splits them into words, crams them into cells, and puts color bits on
12:10:59 <virl> link to flux?
12:11:18 <JasonWoof> he does not look them up in the dictionary ahead of time
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12:11:46 <virl> what he cries about is localization and that's something which gets handled at compile time
12:11:58 <virl> or must handled at compiled time
12:11:59 <JasonWoof> what's localization?
12:12:15 <ayrnieu> virl - http://mythago.net/enthflux.html
12:12:44 <ayrnieu> virl - also some information about it at http://www.quartus.net/cgi-bin/twiki/view/Main/EnthFlux
12:12:45 <virl> JasonWoof, that you can read the message which the program spits out.
12:13:08 <JasonWoof> virl: who's crying about that?
12:13:17 <virl> hmm, my freezed project has also a part which is called flux
12:13:28 <virl> PoppaVic, iirc.
12:13:35 <JasonWoof> ooooh
12:13:36 * ayrnieu still proud about http://www.quartus.net/cgi-bin/twiki/view/Main/EnthPCSpeakerWords  :-)
12:13:42 <JasonWoof> didn't realize he was here
12:13:49 * JasonWoof has him ignored
12:14:06 <ayrnieu> jason - wetware ignores are better -- for everyone who has to deal with you.
12:14:28 <JasonWoof> usually I can tell when he's around because people sit around explaining obvious things 4 times in a row
12:14:31 <Quartus> JasonWoof, that accounts for why you didn't respond to his blither earlier. :)
12:14:42 <JasonWoof> hehe
12:15:23 <JasonWoof> perhaps other people have gotten better about ignoring him too
12:15:37 <Quartus> Since we're discussing ColorForth, I feel the need to rant about another aspect of it -- it's hard to convey verbally, hard to print, and hard to relate on websites or via email without using funky color formatting.
12:16:00 <virl> really, which sense does it make to have N languages available for a program at runtime? ok, today it's solved that way but I think that's stupid.
12:16:33 <Quartus> I make Quartus Forth available in a wide range of languages, but as separate binaries.
12:16:38 <JasonWoof> sorry, but my programs are  written in english
12:16:51 <virl> and I think about colorforth it has nice concepts, which are really nice and simple.
12:16:55 <ayrnieu> I've never written any of my programs in English.
12:17:01 <JasonWoof> I understand the use of translating a program's interface into other languages
12:17:05 <Quartus> JasonWoof, most of mine are written in Forth. :)
12:17:08 <JasonWoof> but the source code needs to be in one languages
12:17:16 <JasonWoof> Quartus: har
12:17:21 <virl> JasonWoof, for what do you sorry?
12:17:34 <Quartus> Russians and Germans like Forth quite a bit.
12:17:38 <JasonWoof> maybe I'm missing the point...
12:18:00 <JasonWoof> I'm just saying don't expect source code to be translated
12:18:18 <JasonWoof> if you want to be a free software hacker, you need to learn english
12:18:31 <virl> JasonWoof, look, do you know those annoying error messages? like: 'you stupid bastard! you pressed that button'
12:18:39 <Quartus> Surely helps if you want to share code with the larger community.
12:18:45 <ayrnieu> English is pretty hard.  I'd rather they only have to learn something like toki pona.
12:18:47 <JasonWoof> virl: that's the interface
12:18:57 <virl> and that was what I said or meant
12:19:15 <virl> such things should be done at compile time
12:19:50 <virl> for what do you want german error messages on a system for an english speaking user?
12:20:40 <JasonWoof> fwiw text messages could be in a seperate data file
12:20:42 <virl> that and only that was what I meant. no sourcecode, source code should be always in good old ASCII
12:20:51 <JasonWoof> which data file you choose could be chosen an install time
12:21:13 <Quartus> That's the way Quartus Forth does it, merges the appropriate resources in the installer.
12:21:15 <JasonWoof> cool
12:21:34 <JasonWoof> virl: sounds good to me
12:21:49 <JasonWoof> I don't think about translating much at all
12:21:55 <virl> and iirc it was that he wants todo that error messages at runtime, and I think that's stupid.
12:22:04 <JasonWoof> I only know one written language, and it works within ascii quite nicely
12:22:48 <Quartus> Quite a few languages use the Roman alphabet, and so work within ascii.
12:23:25 <JasonWoof> I think the trick to making your software easier to translate (I mean translate the interface) is getting everything that needs to be translated either a) in one place, or b) easy to find (without missing some)
12:23:54 <virl> JasonWoof, jep, a) but at doing that at runtime.
12:24:00 <virl> eh, compile time.
12:24:05 <JasonWoof> Quartus: I can think of a few languages that use _mostly_ ascii characters, but not all
12:24:11 <JasonWoof> like spanis, french, german
12:24:15 <JasonWoof> spanish
12:24:27 <ayrnieu> ...japanese...
12:24:46 <JasonWoof> japanese does not use mostly ascii :)
12:25:02 <Quartus> Yes, true, some accented characters are required for most non-English languages.  I stand corrected.
12:25:11 <JasonWoof> lord only knows how computers can handle japanese
12:25:21 <Quartus> There's a Romanized version of Japanese.
12:25:23 <virl> how exactly does a japanese write a perl program?
12:25:33 <JasonWoof> virl: in english
12:25:47 <virl> yeah, so ASCII again..
12:25:56 <JasonWoof> yep. perl is based on ascii
12:26:05 <JasonWoof> as are most programming languages
12:27:06 <virl> yep, I know.
12:27:24 <ayrnieu> well, it Perl.
12:27:27 <ayrnieu> 'in Perl'.
12:27:34 <michaelw> APL :)
12:27:37 <virl> when PoppaVic would be more understandable ...
12:27:43 <virl> APL, bah, J
12:27:51 <virl> (APL with ASCII)
12:28:10 <Quartus> German, English, Spanish, French, Malay, Dutch, Norwegian, Portuguese, and Swedish are all managed by codepage 1252, which is more-or-less an extended ASCII.
12:28:16 <Quartus> Oh, and Klingon. :)
12:28:44 <virl> yeah..
12:29:49 <virl> Quartus, or what did PoppaVic really meant?
12:29:56 <virl> ehm mean
12:30:17 <Quartus> Who the hell knows?
12:30:44 <Quartus> When he's not being completely opaque, he's being dismissive or crass.
12:32:21 <virl> it was something with localization I would guess
12:32:51 <Quartus> If I had to guess (and I do), he has no patience for anything non-ASCII, and Unicode frightens him.
12:33:10 <Quartus> Oh, sorry, I mean "unifoo" or "unishit".  Pick one.
12:34:37 <virl> that says much about him
12:35:33 <Quartus> I'm quite sure it doesn't matter; he doesn't appear to write any code.
12:36:04 <virl> yep, like me.
12:36:21 <virl> but at least I try ;-)
12:36:30 <virl> (xell)
12:37:54 <virl> besides that I'm currently implementing a xlib interface for retroforth(so actually some code)
12:40:28 <JasonWoof> virl: cool
12:40:47 <JasonWoof> I usually forget  that 
12:40:53 <JasonWoof> I could do xlib
12:41:14 <JasonWoof> I usually only consider SDL or gtk
12:42:27 <JasonWoof> maybe I could make that into a haiku
12:43:32 <ayrnieu> in forthtime i think / "SDL or GTK" / and pass by xlib
12:44:27 <JasonWoof> usually SDL provides exactly what I want
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13:00:21 <virl> I thought first at xlib and then on sdl or gtk.
13:00:39 <ayrnieu> I'd like a WM in forth, actually.
13:00:45 <virl> mostly I tend to go to the roots
13:01:06 <virl> retroforth, hopefully will the forth which does that :-)
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13:06:07 <ayrnieu> hm, my mud client is coming along nicely :-)
13:07:33 <ayrnieu> although it's odd when things become useful far ahead of expectation
13:07:51 <virl> sdl, gtk, all things which need to get translated into the forth space.
13:08:12 <virl> and sdl is also slow so it makes the result more slower.
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13:21:18 <ayrnieu> currently, a seperate task prints anything from the mud, and M (aliased from m" , which is based on s\"-parse , and only special in that it puts the string in a buffer and appends \r\n ; M by itself accidentally works, but I should change it if I want to refer to " without escaping) sends text to the mud.  So I still have all of gforth available as I communicate to the mud.
13:21:56 <ayrnieu> simple enough to load other words from here that give me a vi-like interface, or that request input on their own ; I can always drop back out of them.
13:29:03 <Quartus> Is this something attached to an existing game?
13:30:26 <ayrnieu> to a MUD , yes.
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13:31:57 <ayrnieu> a multiuser kind of game like interactive fiction with very ad-hoc protocols.
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13:41:32 <Quartus> Ah. Fantasy?
13:41:42 <ayrnieu> not necessarily, but many of them are
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14:08:59 <crc> good evening
14:10:31 <Quartus> hi crc
14:11:59 * nighty_ snorts
14:18:38 <ayrnieu> : ?stop-unless-wouldblock ( x -- ) -1 <> ?wouldblock or ?exit ." mud-out error: " errno@ error$ type cr stop ;  : .recvbuf ( n -- ) 0 max recvbuf swap type ;  : mud-out ( s -- _ ) 1 mud-out-t pass begin dup recvbuf 4096 rot recv dup ?stop-unless-wouldblock .recvbuf again ;
14:19:02 <ayrnieu> the magic number only also occurs above this, when recvbuf is created
14:19:08 <Ray_work> hi Quartus hi nighty_ hi ayrnieu hi crc
14:19:14 <Quartus> Hi Ray_work.
14:19:17 <ayrnieu> hi Ray_work
14:19:44 <nighty_> hi all the above
14:19:47 <Quartus> ayrnieu, that'd need some formatting for me to begin to follow it.  Little bit of verticality. :)
14:20:46 <Quartus> What does the stack notation ( s -- _ ) denote?
14:21:13 <ayrnieu> it's here, then :-)  http://sial.org/pbot/18196
14:21:19 <Quartus> Are you using a Forth with exception handling? CATCH/THROW?
14:21:24 <ayrnieu> something I just made up.  NORETURN.
14:22:13 <Quartus> Not sure what that means.
14:22:15 <ayrnieu> yes, it has exception handling.  I still don't know how that'd work with mud-out running in its own task, though.
14:22:39 <Quartus> Hmm, I don't know. I'd expect exception handling to be a per-task deal.
14:22:48 <ayrnieu> mud-out can't ever return.  It sleeps on that STOP in ?stop-unless-wouldblock , and might be restarted by someone calling mud-out again.
14:23:48 <ayrnieu> *nod*, in that case, there's nothing 'above' mud-out.  For an interactive program, printing the socket-level error suffices.
14:25:15 <ayrnieu> ( s -- ) 1 mud-out-t pass \ start the mud-out-t task with only s on the data stack , this task continuing in the current definition past the PASS
14:25:16 <Quartus> Unless you have multiple error conditions occurring at different levels of nesting, in which case catching them all in one place might make the code cleaner.
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14:27:12 <ayrnieu> well, this code is a little bit deceptive, in that .recvbuf will just harmlessly TYPE a 0-length string on error from RECV , with ?stop-unless-wouldblock having already decided if the task should stop on the error.
14:28:00 <Quartus> Ah.
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14:28:57 <ayrnieu> for now, I figure that keeping the code compact will keep it from contaminating too much of the rest of the program :-)
14:32:04 <ayrnieu> ow, wait, I guess that mud-out /does/ return.  It just only returns for the task that isn't mud-out-t
14:32:20 <ayrnieu> so the proper stack comment is ( s -- )
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15:05:56 <ayrnieu> hello, I440r !
15:06:30 <I440r> hi
15:06:35 <Ray_work> hi
15:06:47 * Ray_work stuck at work till four more hours.
15:06:52 <ayrnieu> I440r - how goes isforth ?
15:07:34 <I440r> making some minor changes and still working on the debugger
15:07:40 <I440r> but its going good
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15:20:40 <LoopHog> hi
15:22:09 <I440r> hi loop
15:22:40 <LoopHog> I am trying to get ahold of JasonWoof
15:22:55 <LoopHog> I forgot the command to log into NicServ
15:23:00 <LoopHog> how r u?
15:23:06 <LoopHog> How about the 24b?
15:23:53 <I440r> try /msg nickserv identify top-secret-password
15:24:00 <I440r> whats the 24b ?
15:24:32 <LoopHog> Intellasys Forth processor
15:24:51 --- nick: LoopHog -> LOOPHOG
15:24:52 <I440r> oh
15:25:04 --- nick: LOOPHOG -> LOOP-HOG
15:25:23 <LOOP-HOG> there!
15:25:40 <virl> I'd like to see it in action
15:25:56 <LOOP-HOG> I would need to get an eval board, which are comming
15:26:09 <LOOP-HOG> You should be able to google Intellasys
15:26:12 <LOOP-HOG> and 24b
15:26:21 <ayrnieu> : rod begin rodbuf dup 256 acecpt dup while >mud repeat 2drop ;
15:26:41 <I440r> i dont like accept
15:26:42 <LOOP-HOG> where's the MUD!
15:26:43 <ayrnieu> ( this particular mud only accepts 256 characters on a line. )
15:26:48 <I440r> theres nothing wrong with query and expect
15:26:50 <virl> LOOP-HOG, I don't need to google I know it's website.
15:26:56 <LOOP-HOG> ok, cool
15:27:01 <I440r> if it aint broke wyy the fuck does ans think it needs to fix it
15:27:11 <LOOP-HOG> I don't know, but I never liked PAD
15:27:17 <I440r> all the damned time
15:27:28 <I440r> ohh its not broken, lets fix it and give it a fucked up name
15:27:31 <ayrnieu> I don't like query and expect.  There's nothing wrong with accept.  If it aint broke wyy the fuck does pre-ans think it needs to fix it
15:27:37 <Quartus> I440r, have you read the rationale regarding the deprecation of query and expect?
15:27:37 <I440r> like (camp voice) postpone
15:27:42 <virl> but there isn't much action around this chip on the website, even the tools which should be picked up on the 30th of june aren't uploaded.
15:28:03 <LOOP-HOG> hopefully in a few days, if not then harrass jeff
15:28:15 <I440r> there wasnt a damned thing wrong with either
15:28:16 <ayrnieu> IAC, this suffices -- except for the part where ^D also exits gforth , but I might fix that by finding gforth's jump-table (I remember that it has one)
15:28:24 <Quartus> have you read the rationale, though?
15:28:34 <I440r> nope
15:28:41 <LOOP-HOG> more coffee
15:28:46 <LOOP-HOG> more more
15:28:50 <I440r> thats all it is. rationalizations
15:28:50 <ayrnieu> I expect to spend more time in a the vi-like interface, anyway.
15:29:19 <Quartus> A rationale is not a rationalization.
15:29:37 <I440r> actually the one thing i would add to expect would be cursor movement (including up and down for command history)
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15:29:44 <LOOP-HOG> hi
15:29:50 <Ray_work> hi
15:29:52 <I440r> im aware of the difference between the two words :)
15:30:26 <Quartus> Yet you conflate them in an attempt to raise smoke.
15:30:34 <I440r> im also aware of the "rationalization" for breaking NOT again
15:30:54 <I440r> "oooh imm too gay to force one or other useage of 'not' to change"
15:31:21 <I440r> Quartus, everything ive seen about the ans standard was rationalized imho
15:31:24 <Quartus> So in your mind, homosexuality caused the committee to make certain decisions?
15:31:39 <I440r> no just limp wristed thinking
15:31:52 <I440r> the "not" case was a COP-OUT
15:31:54 <virl> ok, one argument against ANS Forth, it's gay, lol.
15:32:31 <Quartus> You freely admit to not even having read the rationales.  You'll be a lot more credible if you educate yourself first.
15:32:44 <I440r> we have some people using the 79 standard definition of NOT being : not 0= ; 
15:33:12 <I440r> and we have some people using the CORRECTED 83 standard definition for not
15:33:34 <I440r> we dont want to piss either off by actually making a stand one way or the other so we wont define NOT
15:33:36 <Quartus> The holy, perfect 16-bit Forth-83 standard that you so revere?
15:33:51 <Quartus> The one chained to a specific implementation method?
15:33:55 <I440r> we will invent a new word with a stupid name and let people define not any way they want
15:34:34 <I440r> the 83 standard had flaws for sure but there were definatly parts of it that were not broken 
15:34:36 <I440r> like NOT
15:34:37 <ayrnieu> INVERT has a stupid name?
15:34:53 <I440r> x 5 = invert if  doesnt READ right
15:35:00 <I440r> x 5 = not if  DOES read right
15:35:13 <ayrnieu> then : not invert ; , if you want that.  Why don't you want 0= there?
15:35:32 <I440r> beacuse 0- is a test for equality with zero
15:35:55 <I440r> NOT is a one's complement
15:36:10 <I440r> or an inversion from true to false
15:36:18 <I440r> which is why they called it invert
15:36:19 <I440r> i know
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15:36:27 <Quartus> So 0= correctly tests for false.  All non-false values are true; all inversions of non-false values are not false, so there's a flaw in your thinking.
15:36:27 <I440r> but NOT is the correct name
15:36:42 <I440r> no
15:36:57 <I440r> you dont do a ligical test on NON logical values
15:36:59 <virl> Quartus, define firstly what you think 'implementation method' is
15:37:11 <Quartus> virl, a specific cell-width and threading method, for starters.
15:37:13 <I440r> but 5 NOT is a VALID operation
15:37:31 <Quartus> virl, combined with, say, assumptions about the input and output device characteristics.
15:37:35 <I440r> x 3 not and
15:37:44 <I440r> or x y not and  
15:37:49 <I440r> a better example
15:37:56 <I440r> the first could be x -3 and
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15:38:24 <I440r> the forth word NOT was not broken no matter what ans says
15:38:25 <virl> ok, well interesting.
15:38:26 <Quartus> virl, add to that a specific dictionary implementation, and byte order.
15:38:36 <I440r> maybe some peoples USE of it was broken but IT wasnt
15:38:45 <Quartus> I440r, in fact ANS does not say NOT was broken. You really should read it.
15:39:12 <I440r> no - ans says "no version of not is broeken so we wont define how its supposed to be"
15:39:19 <I440r> they say "dont use NOT in anything new"
15:39:22 <Quartus> No, it doesn't say that either.
15:39:24 <I440r> i KNOW the "rationalization"
15:39:29 <Quartus> Clearly you do not.
15:39:58 <I440r> the ans standard doesnt define NOT because if they Do define it they will break one or other set of code
15:40:21 <I440r> they tell you you should not use NOT in any new code that you want portable
15:40:28 <I440r> you should use "invert"
15:40:43 <Quartus> There is no sanction against NOT, nor against any other word not provided in the Standard.
15:40:59 <I440r> if they had simply defined NOT correctly the way f83 did and "ohhh dear" forced all those 79ers to "eek" modify their code
15:41:19 <virl> Quartus, ok, thanks, well that is equal with my interpretation of 'implementation method'
15:41:23 <Quartus> You are entirely free to define NOT as it best suits your purposes.
15:41:31 <I440r> EXACTLY!!!!!!
15:41:39 <I440r> i.e. : not drop ;
15:41:47 <I440r> is perfectly legal in ans forth
15:41:52 <Quartus> And in F83, and in F79.
15:42:06 <I440r> not has already been defined in f86 and f79
15:42:14 <I440r> the definition in 79 standard was wrong
15:42:14 <Quartus> You're still free to redefine it.
15:42:21 <I440r> it was fixed in the 83 standard
15:42:45 <I440r> yes whats broken in ans is that they did NOT define not
15:42:55 <Quartus> Let me help you out.   : NOT INVERT ;
15:43:01 <I440r> no
15:43:09 <I440r> thats visual clutter DUCT TAPE code
15:43:22 <Quartus> Yes, it's blocking my whole screen here.  Horrible!
15:43:52 <I440r> and every example of "portable" ans forth ive seen has quite alot of it
15:44:00 <I440r> #ifdef this compiler
15:44:07 <I440r>   : lots of glue code goes here ;
15:44:10 <virl> it's like C code..
15:44:11 <I440r> #then
15:44:22 <I440r> exactly
15:44:31 <Quartus> #ifdef isn't Standard Forth.  And yes, any effort to make code portable is more cluttered and verbose than code written for a specific system.
15:44:46 <Quartus> In Forth or in C.
15:44:49 <virl> could it be that it was formed by C coders?
15:44:58 <I440r> which means its NOT portable. its just 2o864958264 different versions of the source files
15:45:02 <I440r> all interleaved into the same files
15:45:14 <I440r> making them visually cluttered and HARDER TO READ
15:45:17 <I440r> thus harder to maintain
15:45:32 <Quartus> The committee that created the Standard was not comprised of 'C coders', in fact they were, in the great majority, Forth professionals and system implementors with a great deal invested in Forth.
15:45:33 <virl> and lesser fun to code it.
15:46:04 <I440r> when i read c sources they all eventually turn into
15:46:07 <I440r>   blah
15:46:09 <I440r>    blah blah
15:46:11 <I440r>     blah
15:46:14 <I440r>   blah blah
15:46:15 <I440r>   blah
15:46:22 <I440r> ans forht does the same to me
15:46:30 <Quartus> Your ability to read C notwithstanding, I really do recommend you read the Standard.
15:47:17 <I440r> no point. thus far EVERYTHING ive leared about the standard has been a giant step in the wrong direction
15:47:34 <I440r> it a hugely complex solution to a very simple prpblem
15:47:39 <Quartus> Well, willful ignorance is an option a lot of people go for, so you're not alone.
15:47:59 <I440r> its not willful ignorance
15:48:11 <Quartus> Refusal to even read the document?  It's not all that long, you know.
15:48:17 <I440r> tho it is blissfull
15:48:27 <I440r> not its just all wrong
15:48:30 <I440r> or... mostly wrong
15:48:56 <I440r> postpone alone tells me ans forth is not worth the effort 
15:49:03 <Quartus> Listen, educate yourself, try hard to present your issues in some way that doesn't involve homosexuality or the dragging in of irrlevancies, and you'll be a lot more credible and convincing.
15:49:05 <I440r> then NOT adds to that conclusion
15:49:36 <I440r> if you say so
15:49:39 <Quartus> I do say so.
15:50:09 <I440r> did you ever look at isforths kernel sources ?
15:50:20 <Quartus> There's a copy up on my website.  http://quartus.net/dpans
15:50:27 <Quartus> I believe I did at one point, yes.
15:50:37 <I440r> have you ever read my blurb on compile and [compile] and the reason i wont define postpone ?
15:50:58 <Quartus> I recall it to some degree, though not the specifics.
15:51:18 <I440r> ;This word and [compile] have become a bit of an issue in the forth
15:51:18 <I440r> ;community.  compile takes the next token from the execution stream
15:51:18 <I440r> ;and compiles it into the definition currently being created.  [compile]
15:51:18 <I440r> ;takes the next token out of the INPUT stream and compiles it into the
15:51:18 <I440r> ;definition currently being created. [compile] is used to compile immediate
15:51:19 <I440r> ;words which would normally execute when in compile mode instead of being
15:51:21 <I440r> ;compiled.
15:51:26 <I440r> ;
15:51:28 <I440r> ;The perceived problem with this is that they have very similar names and
15:51:30 <I440r> ;you as the programmer would need to know every single immediate word in
15:51:32 <I440r> ;the entire dictionary in order to know how to use each of the above.  
15:51:34 <I440r> ;
15:51:36 <I440r> ;In order to solve this huge non-problem a new word has been invented that
15:51:43 <I440r> ;will compile any word, immediate or otherwise, thus relieving you of the
15:51:45 <I440r> ;responsibility of knowing the language you are programming in.
15:51:47 <I440r> thats the comment on compile
15:52:02 <ayrnieu> 'very similar names' is hardly a problem, in a document that also defines CHAR and [CHAR]
15:52:03 <I440r> theres not a single thing either you or the ans standard can say that will convince me that "postpone" is the right way to go
15:52:12 <I440r> tada!
15:52:18 <Quartus> Ok. That's all well and good until you have an interest in writing portable code. 
15:52:34 <I440r> which doesnt even exist in reality
15:52:36 <Quartus> Which is one of the key reasons the Standard (any standard) exists.
15:52:37 <I440r> so whatever
15:52:49 <I440r> and porting between different dialects of forth is a complete NON ISSUE
15:52:54 <Quartus> Absolute portability is unachievable, in the large, yes.  But it can be approached.
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15:53:14 <I440r> not without obfuscating the code
15:53:25 <ayrnieu> what do you abhor in : ?exit postpone if postpone exit postpone then ; immediate   ?  POSTPONE isn't just useful for portability, it's useful.
15:53:48 <Quartus> This "theres not a single thing you or the ans standard can say that will convince me" is emotional ranting of the highest order, I440r.  Really, you need to calm down, read and understand the material you're trying to refute, and present yourself in some kind of civil fashion.
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15:54:05 <I440r> Quartus, whatever
15:54:29 <Quartus> More of the same.  If you can present your ideas without the histrionics, they'll be received a whole lot better, let me assure you.
15:54:41 <I440r> its a statement of fact. postpone is a stupid complex invention 
15:55:01 <I440r> seems to me like your the one frothing at the mouth atm - im not attacking YOU
15:55:12 <ayrnieu> (you're)
15:55:20 <I440r> im arguing against the ans standard and as far as i can tell my arguements are totally valid
15:55:26 <I440r> where as ans forth isnt valid at all
15:55:52 <I440r> ayrnieu, i also do not like the ans way of postpone this postpone that postpone the-other ; immediate
15:56:03 <Quartus> I'm not frothing at the mouth, and I don't believe you're attacking me.  I'm suggesting that you present your ideas without emotional weighting, sweeping statements, "whatever"s, et al.
15:56:10 <I440r> i coded a 2 page macro mechanism in isforth that is far superior
15:56:19 <ayrnieu> I440r - versus what?  : ?exit [compile] if compile exit [compile] then ; immediate ?  (if that's correct)
15:56:37 <I440r> that methid of inlining doesnt allow you to inline a loop or a ."
15:56:39 <ayrnieu> well, anyone can code superior mechanisms.  That's what people do /most/ of the time.
15:56:41 <I440r> for instance
15:57:09 <Quartus> Yes, any implementation, Standard or not, is free to add enhanced facilities such as inlining.  I do, too.
15:57:14 <I440r> ayrnieu, check out macros.f in my sources - its got an in depth arguement against that inlining method
15:57:32 <I440r> yes so thats a non arguement
15:57:41 <Quartus> what is?
15:57:48 <I440r> i DID enhance my forth by NOT making it ans compliant
15:58:12 <ayrnieu> You didn't make it !compliant by adding that facility.
15:58:36 <I440r> ans non conformance was not a goal
15:58:39 <Quartus> That's right.  Adding inlining, optimization, or any number of other facilities does not automatically make a system noncompliant.
15:58:43 <I440r> nor was ans conformance
15:59:18 <I440r> not : foo postpone x postpone y postpone z postpone a ...... postpone z ; immediate is HORRIBLE code
15:59:40 <Quartus> What about "<ayrnieu> I440r - versus what?  : ?exit [compile] if compile exit [compile] then ; immediate ?  (if that's correct)"
16:00:13 <I440r> ?exit is coded in isforth as is exit
16:00:29 <Quartus> Possibly you could answer the question?
16:00:43 <I440r> how about
16:00:53 <I440r> m: ?exit if exit then ;m
16:01:09 <Quartus> Which is illustrative only of syntax and not of method.
16:01:16 <I440r> wrong
16:01:21 <I440r> its far cleaner
16:01:39 <I440r> less verbage bogosity is always a HUGE plus
16:01:41 <Quartus> Agreed, and irrelevant.  Your concern was that POSTPONE replaces [compile] and compile from F83.  What would your example of ?exit be in F83 terms?
16:01:51 <ayrnieu> incidentally, I learned recently with my clever module abstraction that A) I didn't actually need it any of the times I used it, B) the standard tools sufficed for those times it seemed useful, and C) that having clever abstractions in an unimportant part of my code made all of my code harder to read.
16:02:08 <I440r> no. postpone doesnt just replace [compile] it also replaces compile
16:02:14 <Quartus> Yes, I said that.
16:02:21 <I440r> tho both of those are still allowed in ans forth
16:02:27 <Quartus> Yes, that's true.
16:02:35 <I440r> the two words functionality is DISTINCT
16:02:41 <Quartus> Yes, that's also true.
16:02:51 <I440r> in order to replace BOTH you have to take two very simple words and replace them with one very complex word
16:03:07 <Quartus> So you can't or won't answer the question in F83 terms? Which one is it?
16:03:14 <ayrnieu> so as I hardly ever inline code, I'd tend to just use POSTPONE
16:03:34 <I440r> err what didnt i answer ?
16:03:47 <Quartus> It's ten lines up.  What would your example of ?exit be in F83 terms?
16:03:52 <I440r> in f83 terms ?exit is CODED
16:04:00 <I440r> code ?exit
16:04:03 <I440r>  .....
16:04:04 <I440r> end-code
16:04:38 <Quartus> Let's define a new word FOO.  In ANS it's  : FOO postpone if postpone exit postpone then ; immediate      What would that be in F83 terms?
16:04:43 <ayrnieu> OK, : ?dexit [compile] if compile drop compile exit [compile] then ; immediate (if that's right)
16:05:03 <I440r> could you please try harder to CONTRIVE an example ?
16:05:18 <Quartus> How is that example contrived?
16:05:32 <Quartus> And contrived or not, what stops you from answering?
16:05:40 <I440r> : ?dexit if r> 2drop then ;
16:06:00 <I440r> oooh im sory
16:06:13 <I440r> thats breaks another ans rule
16:06:14 <I440r> my bad
16:06:42 <I440r> in ans you cant even guarantee that the top of the return stack on entry into a : definition is said : defiitions return address!
16:06:44 <I440r> oopts
16:06:58 <I440r> strike one more against ans
16:07:45 <I440r> now. instead of trying to verify weather i can actually code forth or not why dont YOU give me an example of why postpone is good
16:07:49 <Quartus> Do you understand why the Standard takes that position on elements on the return stack?  Bear in mind as you answer that it doesn't prohibit the top cell from being the return address, an implementation is free to do that, and most do.
16:07:50 <I440r> or why invert is good
16:08:08 <I440r> or why not knowing at any time whats at the top of a return stack is good ?
16:08:16 <I440r> unless you specifically put it there
16:08:28 <Quartus> The answer to all three is the goal of portability.
16:08:29 <I440r> to me thats the same as not knowing wtf is at the top of the parameter stack
16:08:39 <I440r> a complete NON issue
16:08:44 <Quartus> For you, apparently.
16:08:48 <I440r> and a complete and utter waste of time
16:08:48 <Quartus> Not for many.
16:08:50 <I440r> and effort
16:08:58 <I440r> and a myth to boot
16:09:24 <ayrnieu> I know what INVERT does ; I know what 0= does ; I always use 0= for logical NOT .  That previous standards defined incompatible NOTs doesn't distress me.
16:09:25 <tathi> Quartus: because on a native forth on a RISC chip, the return address may be in the link register instead of actually on the stack, that sort of thing?
16:09:27 <JasonWoof> I used to not care about portability that much
16:09:33 <I440r> take any of my sources and if you have any problems porting them to "pick any other forth"
16:09:38 <JasonWoof> but now my platform of choice is rapidly becoming obsolete
16:09:41 <I440r> and i say your not that good a forth coder
16:09:42 <JasonWoof> (ppc macs)
16:09:47 <Quartus> tathi, sure -- or it may be more than one cell on the return stack, or other issues may pertain.
16:09:52 <I440r> tathi thats not why
16:09:56 <JasonWoof> and I'd like more than 0.5% of the population to be able to run my work
16:09:58 <I440r> there may not BE a return address
16:10:08 <I440r> because the optimizer might have inlined that code behind your back
16:10:11 <Quartus> tathi, it's also possible for a compliant implementation not to use the return stack for return addresses at all.
16:10:41 <I440r> more bogosity
16:10:50 <tathi> ah.  I didn't think of return addresses being bigger than a cell
16:10:59 <Quartus> tathi, in fact in Quartus Forth they're two cells.
16:11:06 <I440r> nor me. i simply define NOT correctly
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16:12:38 <I440r> and refuse to define words that were invented simply to relieve me of the responsibility of knowing the language
16:12:46 <I440r> like postpone
16:13:06 <Quartus> That, again, is not the reason why such a word was added to the Standard.
16:13:15 <I440r> sure it was
16:13:18 <I440r> lol
16:13:22 <Quartus> In fact, nope.
16:13:39 <I440r> educate me
16:13:44 <I440r> why was postpone invented 
16:14:28 <Quartus> To allow you to portably perform the postponement of compliation semantics between compliant Forth systems.
16:14:50 <I440r> ugh and why is compile/[compile] not portable again ?
16:14:59 <tathi> because you have to know whether a word is immediate or not
16:15:02 <Quartus> Correct.
16:15:05 <I440r> tada!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
16:15:13 <I440r> you have to KNOW THE FUCKING LANGUAGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
16:15:24 <tathi> you have to know the *implementation*
16:15:28 <tathi> which is different
16:15:33 <Quartus> Yes, the immediacy of any given word is an implementation detail.
16:15:45 <I440r> in that case you need to always postpne ALL words in ans forth
16:15:52 <I440r> because ANY word can be immediate
16:15:58 <Quartus> No, that's not how it works.
16:16:38 <I440r> oh so... only certain words are allowed to be immediate in an ans implementation ?
16:16:39 <Quartus> Perhaps the confusion runs deeper.  Have you stopped to consider why standards even exist?
16:16:43 <ayrnieu> you have to no that for /any/ word, including words that aren't provided by the system itself, regardless of the syntatic niceties of that word, and you need to repeat this information endlessly.  POSTPONE hides information that you've no need to deal with.  Contrawise ASCII became CHAR and [CHAR] as it hid nothing and as its implementation and compilation semantics were seperately useful.
16:17:09 <michaelw> what happens if I use [compile] on non-immediate words?
16:17:12 <I440r> which is totally NOT the forth way
16:17:16 <I440r> there is no user
16:17:19 <I440r> there is NO SYSTEM
16:17:22 <I440r> thers just FORTH
16:17:31 <Quartus> And the system it runs on, and the user who uses it.
16:17:47 <tathi> look, take ?exit for instance, since we have been looking at different definitions
16:17:57 <tathi> it could be either immediate or not immediate; that's an implementation detail
16:18:28 <I440r> isforths ?exit is NON immediate. but i can define it as an immediate compiling word 
16:18:33 <tathi> with postpone, you can simply write "postpone ?exit" and it will work on a standard forth regardless
16:18:39 <tathi> with [compile] or compile, you have to know
16:18:47 <Quartus> No response on my question, so I'll answer it for you -- Standards exist to facilitate portability.
16:18:57 <tathi> so if you want to move your program to a forth that does it differently, you may have to change the code
16:19:19 <tathi> portability
16:19:27 <Quartus> F79 was a Standard created to facilitate portability, as was F83, and the ANS Standard.  All of'em, bar none, were created to facilitate portability.
16:19:31 <I440r> WITHIN that standard
16:19:43 <I440r> ans tries to be portable accross standards
16:20:12 <Quartus> All Standards work to codify surviving existing practice from earlier standards.
16:21:13 <JasonWoof> I like the idea that you can add an ANS compatibility layer to your forth if you want to
16:21:28 <I440r> duct tape code
16:21:34 <JasonWoof> yep
16:21:35 <Quartus> Certainly I was able to adopt quite a bit of code into Quartus Forth by virtue of being compliant.
16:21:40 <I440r> you always see alot of duct tape code at the top of ans sources
16:21:42 <JasonWoof> the same way they added POSIX support to windoze
16:21:52 <I440r> to cater to the differences between IMPLEMENTATIONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
16:21:59 <JasonWoof> a little crappy at first, but in the end you can run a bunch of cool unix programs on windoze
16:22:12 <I440r> you traded some simple problems for some complex solutions
16:22:26 <I440r> and you STILL have to cater to implementation specifics
16:22:30 <I440r> so you gained nothing
16:22:36 <Quartus> Aside from the nineteen exclamation points, yes, implementations do differ.  But those that are compliant with the Standard are necessarily compliant with each other, insofar as the Standard specifies.
16:23:07 <Quartus> So you've got 80% of the puzzle solved before you start, which isn't too bad as such things go.
16:23:29 <I440r> then you would never need any duct tape code at the top of your sources to cater to swiftx iforth xyzforth abcforth etc
16:23:54 <Quartus> You don't, as long as you're dealing only with features that have been standardized.  When you stray from that, you necessarily are working with non-portable code.
16:23:56 <ayrnieu> You've gained documentation, by virtue of the standard, and further documentation, by virtue of the language and recommendations of the standard.  You can say "I have an environmental dependency on 1 being the size of a char and the address unit." and then carry on with your 1+  80 allot  &c-using code, as for instance the Forth Application Techniques book explicitly does.
16:24:22 <Quartus> Or perhaps you declare a dependency on 32-bit cell-size.
16:24:23 <I440r> and you gained inordinate ammounts of obfuscation and visual clutter
16:24:27 <I440r> not worth it
16:24:45 <ayrnieu> \ Environmental dependency: 1 is the size of a char and the address unit.
16:24:54 <ayrnieu> Not a huge amount of obfuscation and visual clutter.
16:25:14 <Quartus> Your opinion.  In my opinion, it is extremely worth it.  By creating a standard system, I have been able to draw on a great deal of existing standard code.
16:26:00 <ayrnieu> POSTPONE offers /less/ visual clutter, by definition, and use of 0= or INVERT only show that those particular qualities are used by the word
16:26:17 <Quartus> There seems to be a prevailing attitude among some (I believe you hold this attitude, I440r, though please do correct me if I'm wrong) that the existence of the Standard prevents non-Standard systems, or non-Standard facilities in those systems, from existing.
16:26:54 <I440r> well you critisize my opinions frequently yet fail to give me anything other that rationalizations for yours
16:27:02 <I440r> portability is a MYTH
16:27:03 <I440r> period
16:27:06 <Quartus> Not only is that not true, the Standard explicitly says so.  In practical terms, the divorce of implementation from semantics has freed implementors to create some of the best Forths yet, in terms of implementation strategies.
16:27:21 <I440r> show me any portable code in any language other than java lol and your going to see GLUE CODE
16:27:55 <I440r> it doesnt revent non standard systems
16:27:57 <virl> best forths? that should be best forths? rofl
16:28:02 <I440r> but yes i know what you mean and YES
16:28:03 <Quartus> Perfect portability is extremely difficult to achieve for anything other than trivial code.  It can, however, be approached to varying degrees.  The Standard (again, ALL standards) exist to facilitate that effort.
16:28:10 <I440r> the ans standard paints you into a corner
16:28:44 <Ray_work> but the robot it builds can snatch you right back out.
16:28:50 <I440r> as does the 83 standard of corse
16:28:57 <I440r> but to a far far far lesser degree
16:29:08 <I440r> isforth is definatlyh not 83 standard compliant
16:29:30 <I440r> its 100% isforth compliant
16:29:39 <Quartus> That's certainly not true.  F83 requires a 16-bit cell width, a specific dictionary implementation, exposed innards in a number of areas that effectively narrow the implementation strategies to one.
16:29:52 <I440r> and as stated previously porting MY sources to ANY forth is a TRIVIAL thing
16:30:33 <virl> how long would you need to port it to retro?
16:30:34 <I440r> "exposed innards"
16:30:48 <I440r> i.e. no top secret you no look code
16:30:51 <Quartus> No.
16:31:08 <I440r> virl what specifically ?
16:31:25 <virl> retroforth
16:31:26 <I440r> no what ?
16:31:33 <I440r> port WHT to retro  lol
16:31:49 <virl> your source, you said that it's so TRIVIAL
16:32:01 <I440r> which sources. 
16:32:16 <I440r> you could start by adding ?: to retro :)
16:32:47 <I440r> you could then replace if xxx else yyy then with ?: xxx yyy
16:33:03 <I440r> 8 cells replaced by 3 cells
16:33:27 <ayrnieu> that's so trivial, virl won't even need to look at your implementation.
16:33:56 <I440r> and i use ?: alot so that will simplify porting some more complex sources
16:33:57 <Quartus> That could even be coded portably in ANS Forth.
16:34:10 <I440r> i never said it couldnt
16:34:22 <Quartus> I realize that.  I'm not countering anything you said.
16:34:37 <I440r> isforth could probably be made ans compliant with very few trivial modifications
16:35:22 <I440r> oh i got a question
16:35:26 <ayrnieu> do you have ALLOCATE and friends, now?
16:35:43 <I440r> how do your forths find an nfa given a cfa ?
16:35:59 <I440r> ive had a VERY nice memory manager in isforth for about 2 years
16:36:13 <I440r> tho i want to recode parts of it in asm eventually
16:36:34 <Quartus> That depends on the Forth.  A Standard system is required to provide an xt, but not either a cfa nor a nfa.  The method of retrieving either is implementation-defined.
16:36:56 <I440r> yes im asking implementation specifics
16:37:11 <I440r> isforth stores a nasty pointer to the nfa at cfa-4
16:37:18 <I440r> which i hated adding
16:37:24 <I440r> it prevents drop thru code
16:37:37 <Quartus> How do I do it in Quartus Forth?  The xt in Quartus Forth is a code address, I have a .name that tracks back through the hashtable to find the name and displays it.
16:38:03 <Quartus> It's only ever been used in SEE, as far as I know.
16:38:12 <I440r> how do you handle multiple words with the same name in the same dictionary
16:38:23 <Quartus> Most recently defined is found first.
16:38:35 <I440r> and older definitions are lost
16:38:39 <Quartus> Lost?
16:38:50 <Ray_work> use crc's word PRIOR to get to the previous definition.
16:38:53 <I440r> given the CFA how do you find that words NFA
16:39:12 <I440r> how do you know whych one is the RIGHT one! lol
16:39:18 --- nick: segher__ -> segher
16:39:22 <Quartus> Names are stored in an independent address space in Quartus Forth, so there is no NFA that would be of any use.  That's why .NAME does the displaying.
16:39:27 <Ray_work> you designed the word, that's how you know.
16:39:37 * crc wonders how older definitions are lost...
16:39:40 <I440r> the only way i can think is to do an exhaustive search on all headers in all vocabularies till you find one that references that specific cfa
16:39:49 <Quartus> Yes, that's what mine does.
16:39:54 <I440r> hidden 
16:40:07 <I440r> lost is a poor choice of words
16:40:17 <Quartus> Well, no, if you define two words named 'foo', and pass the xt of either to .name, 'foo' will be displayed both times.
16:40:45 <I440r> no - there are other things in the header besides the nfa
16:40:52 <I440r> so maybe i should have hasked
16:41:11 <I440r> how do you find a given xt's header address without having to exhaustive search for it
16:41:27 <Quartus> I have a hashed dictionary with external headers, so there's no way.
16:41:36 <Quartus> No way besides the search, that is.
16:41:56 <I440r> i also often define a source file with ALL definitions headerless and then create aliases for the ones i want visible
16:41:57 <Quartus> This never comes up in my system except in the disassembler, but if it did I might add a hashed xt table.
16:42:11 <ayrnieu> I440r - why do you do that?
16:42:34 <I440r> so i dont have to keep flipping headerless headerfull headerless etc etc
16:42:37 <Quartus> For visible vs. non-visible words, I use a module/public:/private:/end-module facility.
16:42:38 <I440r> cleaner
16:42:51 <I440r> i have <headers and headers>
16:43:06 <I440r> i think of them as being arrows pointing towards the words with headers
16:43:07 <Quartus> When a turnkey is generated in Quartus Forth, all words become headerless, so the issue is only one of visible/non-visible during development.
16:43:13 <I440r> same here
16:43:32 <I440r> i want to expand on that and also discard the entier compiler vocabulary
16:43:39 <I440r> i mean the CODE for said vocabulary
16:43:41 <Ray_work> keeps innocents like me from hackin' the smack out of it. 
16:43:46 <I440r> its all deadwood on turnkey
16:43:57 <I440r> Ray_work, thats a bad thing
16:43:59 <Quartus> In Quartus Forth, application code is recursively extracted from the system -- no non-relevant code is included.
16:44:09 <I440r> i ENCOURAGE youto hack the smack out of isforth :)
16:44:12 <Ray_work> :)
16:44:28 <I440r> in the same way Tom Zimmer did tcom
16:44:30 <Ray_work> Quartus: thats very cool. Just dependancies then?
16:44:32 <I440r> i had considered that too
16:44:38 <Quartus> Right, just dependencies.
16:44:44 <I440r> that would be a very special target compiler mode
16:44:52 <I440r> not a normal compilatin mode
16:45:04 <Quartus> If (I can't think why, but if) I needed to do fast searches for headers from xts, I'd set up a hashed table, as I say.  But it never comes up.
16:45:34 <I440r> a hash of xt's ?
16:45:38 <Quartus> Yes.
16:45:51 <I440r> that is still less efficient than a pointer at cfa-4
16:46:09 <I440r> but i also think thats ugly
16:46:14 <Quartus> In terms of speed, yes, but not in terms of space, which is at a premium in my system.
16:46:53 <I440r> true but on your system i would prefer an umbilical forth of some sort
16:46:57 <I440r> if that were possible
16:47:06 <I440r> or a target compiler
16:47:25 <I440r> host pc compiles the target objects which you then SYNC to the handheld
16:47:26 <Quartus> Quartus Forth is a target compiler, but it's not umbilical.  I wrote so that the device itself could be used to write code.
16:47:36 <I440r> yup
16:47:57 <I440r> that way you dont depend on another system
16:48:14 <Ray_work> if i didn't have to go to MA. this summer, id have a Quartus loaded Pilot or some such.
16:48:24 <Quartus> It's fun.
16:48:33 <I440r> so is isforth
16:48:39 <Ray_work> salt in the wound SALT IN THE WOUND :)
16:49:08 <I440r> ick MA
16:49:17 <I440r> peoples democratic republic thereof
16:49:32 <Ray_work> Why do you think I live in Tejas.
16:49:42 <I440r> where in tx ?
16:49:47 <Ray_work> nearly as bad, but better hats. :)
16:49:55 <Ray_work> Forth Wort.
16:50:00 <I440r> texas is good
16:50:04 <I440r> i live in san antonio
16:50:12 <I440r> tho im currently working in south carolina
16:50:23 <Ray_work> ooh when did you make the move?
16:50:33 <I440r> 2 years ago lol
16:50:53 <Ray_work> how do you like it so far, I mean isn't it MORE humid there?
16:50:59 <Ray_work> if that's possible.
16:51:07 <I440r> no
16:51:09 <Ray_work> oh
16:51:14 <I440r> actually south carolina is way more humid
16:51:17 <Ray_work> ah
16:51:26 <I440r> ive not seen any excessive humidity in san antonio at all
16:51:29 <I440r> plenty of heat tho :)
16:51:41 <Ray_work> yeah! that's a fact.
16:52:02 <Ray_work> we have two seasons, Airconditioning and Heater.
16:52:09 <I440r> lol
16:52:11 <I440r> i like it
16:52:18 <I440r> you dont need much heating in winter
16:52:22 <Ray_work> no
16:52:22 <I440r> and i like hot summers
16:52:30 <Ray_work> you are right about that.
16:52:36 <Ray_work> I do as well.
16:53:14 <Ray_work> I like watching my son mow. I like watching my daughter get the pizza from the guy in the driveway... :)
16:53:40 <I440r> lol
16:54:32 <Ray_work> I like making my room really dark and coding till .... quoting John Lennon ... " I got blisters on my fingers".
16:55:12 <JasonWoof> my keyboard doesn't have frets
16:55:24 <I440r> mine doesnt have letters
16:55:28 <I440r> :)
16:55:35 <I440r> actually this one does :P
16:55:36 <Ray_work> The new Guiltar fret keyboard from the makers of JasonWoof.
16:55:41 <Quartus> Was that John? I thought that was Paul.
16:55:51 <I440r> but i wore out most of the letters on my old laptop
16:56:07 <I440r> just bought ann coulters new book :)
16:56:17 <Ray_work> Quartus: we are prob'ly both wrong and it was GH.
16:56:18 <Quartus> Wait. Ringo.
16:56:22 <I440r> someone defaced it by writing "SLUT" on the front in ball point
16:56:24 <Quartus> It really was Ringo.
16:56:25 <Ray_work> right.
16:56:32 <I440r> i got 25% off
16:56:35 * Ray_work agrees with Quartus
16:56:43 <JasonWoof> If my keyboard breaks I might buy Das Keyboard
16:58:05 <Ray_work> so ... who said, " ' I DIG A PIGMY' by Charles Hautry on the deafaid." cuz I really wanna know?
16:58:50 <Quartus> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Vera,_Chuck_&_Dave/Sandbox
16:58:59 <Ray_work> Phase one in which Doris gets here oats. or somesuch.
16:59:05 <Ray_work> cool.
16:59:59 <Ray_work> oh that's just on time there. :)
17:03:03 <Ray_work> that's starting to read like a load of huey.
17:03:21 <JasonWoof>  starting?
17:04:21 <Quartus> What is?
17:04:49 <Ray_work> the wiki artical.
17:05:04 <Quartus> Oh, I don't know.  Edit it if you like!
17:07:11 <Quartus> I've been known to add or correct a fact here and there.
17:07:26 <Ray_work> I can't because I have no position in either direction.
17:08:30 * Ray_work used to beable to play 300 or so Beatles songs on the guitar, and can still play atleast 50 off the top of my head. Is there a deeper loser in the world? :)
17:09:01 <Quartus> I thought only Hendrix could play off the top of his head. :)
17:09:27 <Ray_work> hehe and with his mouth and the labes of his ass. ( where did that come from)
17:09:40 <Quartus> What's a labe?
17:09:47 <Ray_work> Get a girl.
17:10:06 <Quartus> I think you may be thinking of a different word, particularly as it pertains to asses. :)
17:10:49 * Ray_work are waxin' with poetic ( questionable) biological licence.
17:11:15 <Ray_work> I'm tired, I've been at work ALL blumming day.
17:11:27 <Ray_work> blooming even
17:11:39 <Quartus> I still am.  I work at home, but still. :)
17:11:54 <Ray_work> i'm supervisin'
17:12:07 <Quartus> I'm building'.
17:12:10 <Quartus> oops.  Buildin'.
17:12:10 * JasonWoof has never heard of anbody's ass (or anything else for that matter) having labes.
17:12:24 <Quartus> I can only assume he means 'labia', but even then.
17:13:19 <Quartus> Which is not sex-organ specific: it's Latin for 'lips', as in 'labial fricative', as I recall.
17:13:29 <JasonWoof> Quartus: that was the closest word I could think of. but I hope hendrix doesn't have one on his ass
17:13:59 <Quartus> Somehow I don't think of Hendrix as having ass-lips, but then I didn't know him personally. :)
17:14:13 <JasonWoof> lol
17:14:20 <Ray_work> lol
17:15:59 <Ray_work> wait wait, I have to go ask one of the Mexican nationals if he is legal to work here. brb.
17:17:40 <ayrnieu> hm, silly to write "SLUT" on the cover of an Ann Coulter book.  I figure that the people who think that 'slut' is a singular insult are the same people who'd enjoy her books.
17:17:54 <Quartus> Maybe it was a book-review.
17:17:57 --- quit: nighty_ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
17:21:12 <Ray_work> back.
17:22:26 * Ray_work was a proud slut.
17:23:28 <Quartus> Is this in relation to the Mexian national?
17:24:19 <Ray_work> AND his labes.
17:24:41 <Quartus> That is LATE NIGHT! WOOOO!
17:25:17 <Ray_work> ???
17:26:24 <Quartus> Marvelling at the ribald nature of your working environment.
17:26:50 <Ray_work> oh okay. Just so long as it's not personal or nuthin'.
17:27:03 <Quartus> Not last time I checked.
17:27:31 <Quartus> "late night", as in not allowed to be broadcast before 10pm. :)
17:27:36 <Ray_work> oh.
17:27:49 <Quartus> Something sometimes heard in the mid-west.
17:27:51 * Ray_work restrains himself.
17:29:07 <Quartus> Hey, I can only envy you for being out in the world, I've been home making spaceship parts.
17:29:22 <Ray_work> hehe. This too, I envy.
17:29:46 <Quartus> Yesterday, a transport module. Today, framework.
17:30:13 <Ray_work> You may not be aware of this prime fact... I only join chats where the IQ is higher than my own. This is the secret to my great success.
17:30:33 <Ray_work> And the reason why the IQ potential keeps falling.
17:30:36 <Quartus> I think you're in the wrong channel. :)
17:30:41 <Ray_work> lol
17:31:04 <Quartus> The more chemicals I inhale, the lower goes the IQ. :)
17:31:15 <Ray_work> Toxic Glue?
17:31:24 <Ray_work> hmm, band name?
17:31:24 <Quartus> Polyurethane. Paint.
17:31:36 <Quartus> Seldom glue.
17:31:55 <Ray_work> hmm Polyurethane Pam. Does it make the food stick or not?
17:32:17 <Quartus> This stuff would stick food nicely.
17:32:37 <Quartus> Makes a very good glue, even for glass->metal.
17:33:03 <Ray_work> yes, /me has to agree. makes a nice wheel tread. 
17:33:32 <Ray_work> softer then polyolofin, harder then soft rubber.
17:33:35 <Quartus> I think this stuff is used to make rollerblade wheels.
17:33:43 <Ray_work> I'm certain of it.
17:33:43 <Quartus> Shore 80, I think.
17:33:57 <Quartus> 80D.
17:34:04 <Ray_work> ya D scale.
17:34:48 <Ray_work> but you can get custom hardness. 
17:35:17 <Quartus> In this stuff I'd hate for it to be harder, it'd be more brittle.
17:37:24 <Ray_work> Definition: labes: A landslide.
17:37:24 <Ray_work> from http://space.about.com/od/glossaries/g/labes.htm
17:37:34 <Ray_work> I'm so way off.
17:37:38 <Quartus> I hope :)
17:38:12 <Ray_work> it's true, I'm off my glossary. 
17:39:18 <Ray_work> ROIDS that's the word that should have taken the place of labes, and I had to type before I could think it thru.
17:39:33 <Ray_work> But i'm not ashamed.
17:39:46 <Quartus> No call for it.
17:40:39 <Ray_work> How else are you gonna get to the real me. This chat is ( thankfully) too limiting in it's ability to communicate. I'm sure it saves many of us from having to be continually ignored.
17:41:33 <Ray_work> umm is there anybody out there?
17:41:42 <Ray_work> yikes!
17:41:43 <Quartus> Still here, still making spaceship parts.
17:41:47 <Ray_work> :)
17:43:25 <Ray_work> any pics of the ship?
17:43:34 <LOOP-HOG> spaceship, neat
17:43:40 <LOOP-HOG> who are you making these parts for?
17:43:56 <Ray_work> LOOP-HOG! 
17:44:00 <LOOP-HOG> hi
17:44:51 * Ray_work got a shoe on the infected foot today, a milestone.
17:45:17 <LOOP-HOG> NASA be having foam and crack problems
17:45:22 <Ray_work> yes.
17:45:44 <segher> what else is new
17:45:50 <LOOP-HOG> nothing
17:45:55 <Ray_work> it's prob'ly more the crack. they should stop smoking that when they are foaming at the rocket.
17:46:02 <LOOP-HOG> lol
17:46:21 <segher> heh
17:46:42 <Ray_work> you can't code foam in forth, i don't think, and there in lies the problem.
17:46:58 <Ray_work> but crack, you can crack all you want in forth.
17:47:08 <segher> : bubble  bubble bubble ;
17:47:11 <Ray_work> hehe
17:48:00 <Ray_work> there it is... over redundancy!
17:48:04 --- join: warpzero (n=warpzero@wza.us) joined #forth
17:48:34 <Ray_work> I thought that I read somewhere that the universe is a 2's compliment machine.
17:48:38 <segher> not recursive though.  because that would be a physical impossibility
17:48:43 <Ray_work> oh.
17:49:22 <LOOP-HOG> maybe through another dimention?
17:49:28 <Ray_work> bubbles with-in bubbles. hmmm
17:49:44 <segher> a compliment machine.  that would be nice :-)
17:49:56 <Ray_work> it really would.
17:50:14 <Ray_work> my wife would come in the door, I would toggle the compliment machine... 
17:50:32 <Ray_work> nooky.
17:50:41 <segher> :-)
17:51:09 <Ray_work> my mom would come in the door, I would toggle the compliment machine.... Lasagnia.
17:51:43 <segher> you need to do something about your speling though...  lasagna
17:51:59 <Ray_work> why when I have you to correct me. :)
17:52:08 <Ray_work> the world is your spellcheck.
17:52:30 <segher> :-)
17:53:09 <I440r> ok so i just fixed a bug in my debugger - i can now single step all the way thru both allocate AND free lol
17:53:15 <Ray_work> be thankfull your not grading my penmanship.
17:53:19 <I440r> of corse most of that is headerless :P
17:53:28 <segher> looks better though.  might not get you girls, but at least it'll get you jobs.
17:54:18 <Ray_work> girls I have. jobs I have. Money.............
17:54:26 <segher> heh
17:54:52 <LOOP-HOG> Money can get you girls, but will they be the kind of girls that you want?
17:54:54 <segher> great job, having girls while not having money.  they really love you, eh?
17:55:16 <LOOP-HOG> take all of your money, take you to court, leave you with just a job
17:55:16 <I440r> my rx-8 gets me lots of girls. they all love my car :/
17:55:20 <I440r> dammit
17:55:22 <LOOP-HOG> kewl
17:55:23 <Ray_work> :)
17:55:38 <segher> LOOP-HOG: in my experience, all girls have the same number of holes.  your point was?
17:55:39 <Ray_work> I don't have any money because I have girls.
17:56:07 <Ray_work> I have jobs because I have girls.
17:56:07 <I440r> im sure you have all seen the mathematical proof that girls are evil right ?
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17:56:16 <Ray_work> here we go.
17:56:40 <ayrnieu> most of us, surely.
17:57:07 <Ray_work> I440r: please please proceed.
17:57:34 * Ray_work notes that the truck i'm waiting for at word was supposed to be here an hour ago...
17:57:41 <Ray_work> word=work
17:58:33 <I440r> ray google girlsevil if it doesnt find it ill explain in a mo
17:58:40 <Ray_work> I've always thought of girls as the stem of the human plant.
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17:58:45 <Ray_work> okay Mark.
17:59:02 <Ray_work> wb
17:59:08 <LOOP-HOG> :)
17:59:22 <I440r> girls = time and money
17:59:29 <LOOP-HOG> don't spam, don't troll, and speak Romulan
17:59:33 <I440r> time = money so
17:59:38 <LOOP-HOG> or Harkonan Battle Language
17:59:43 <I440r> girls = money * money
17:59:54 <I440r> girls = money ^2
17:59:56 <Ray_work> hehe
18:00:04 <I440r> money =b root of all evil
18:00:06 <LOOP-HOG> alteast find one that already has a job and her own apartment dude
18:00:10 <I440r> etc etc
18:00:17 <LOOP-HOG> some are worse than others
18:00:26 <segher> girls are the sink of all money and energy.  how they're supposed to be the source of anything i can't comprehend
18:00:33 <Ray_work> thats all funny but it is the example of a quote taken incorrectly.
18:00:35 <LOOP-HOG> crap I almost had a GF last week, if only
18:00:37 <LOOP-HOG> sigh
18:00:41 <segher> heh
18:01:03 <LOOP-HOG> Then there was this cute blond that I was talking to on the bus the other day, she said in passing that she had a BF, figures
18:01:06 <ayrnieu> : money evil sqrt ; : time money ; : girls time money * ;
18:01:48 <LOOP-HOG> well you can just spank the monkey, that doesn't cost anything except for paper towels
18:01:49 <segher> LOOP-HOG: so?
18:01:57 <LOOP-HOG> whatever
18:02:10 <Ray_work> LOOP-HOG: they all have boyfriends, should never stop you.
18:02:28 <segher> she says she has a boyfriend. vjust means you have some competition
18:02:35 <segher> yeah
18:02:37 <Ray_work> LOOP-HOG: they are always looking, as we..
18:02:47 <Ray_work> do
18:02:59 <Ray_work> they shop.
18:03:14 <Ray_work> they look harder then we do, in the general case.
18:03:22 <segher> that's what girls are good at -- shopping
18:03:28 <Ray_work> somehow they look with out looking, 
18:03:30 <Quartus> http://nealbridges.com/images/fullpodsmall.jpg
18:03:34 <Quartus> http://nealbridges.com/images/podpainted.jpg
18:03:38 <Ray_work> oooh cool.
18:03:40 <segher> build into their genes or something
18:03:40 <Quartus> That's just the center transport module.
18:04:05 <Ray_work> it's the arch of the covenant.
18:04:18 <Quartus> The Archie of the covenant
18:04:21 <LOOP-HOG> do you have a fusion reactor
18:04:23 <Ray_work> hehe
18:04:23 <segher> that's...  like star wars shit.  we were talking about girls, dammit
18:04:30 <Ray_work> hahaha
18:04:35 <Quartus> That's Space: 1999 shit, actually. :)
18:04:41 <LOOP-HOG> fake star-wars = .  -1
18:04:55 <Quartus> Though the special-effects director went on to work on Empire Strikes Back, I believe.
18:04:58 * Ray_work remembers Barbara fondly
18:05:18 <Quartus> No, Lucas came after Space: 1999.  He actually visited the set and stole ideas & people. :)
18:05:19 <segher> ray_work:  you know here?
18:05:36 <Quartus> Barbara Bain was a beautiful woman.  Her daughter isn't bad either.
18:05:42 <Ray_work> new? no, been here about 2-3 years or so.
18:05:52 <Ray_work> Daughter = ?
18:05:53 <segher> oh her.  never mind :-)
18:06:01 <Quartus> Yes, Juliet Landau.
18:06:11 <Quartus> Also Martin Landau's daughter, he being Bain's husband.
18:06:18 <Quartus> Well, not anymore, divorced.
18:06:35 <Ray_work> Juliet Landau ( spoken like Homer saying " hmmm fooooood" )
18:06:52 <segher> dirty bastard
18:07:06 <Quartus> She's ... 41, I think. Still looks good though.
18:07:16 <Ray_work> a year younger then myself. 
18:07:30 <Ray_work> that's the right age for a women, let me tell ya guys!
18:07:39 <Quartus> No argument here.
18:07:47 <segher> wow, aomeone older than me, hanging around on #forth
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18:08:07 <Quartus> segher, but what about PoppaVic!  I mean, he's OLD!  Like, 46!
18:08:15 <Ray_work> ya he's old.
18:08:22 <segher> more ike 84 i think
18:08:27 <Quartus> Nope, he's 46.
18:08:35 <segher> he's the exception heh
18:08:47 <Quartus> I'm 37 (I had to do the math).  
18:08:57 <Ray_work> hehe
18:08:59 <segher> he's just completely weird anyway
18:09:09 <Quartus> True.
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18:09:20 <segher> quartus: that proves you're over 30 alright
18:09:25 <Ray_work> :)
18:09:44 * ayrnieu : 23
18:10:23 <segher> anyone here going to OLS?
18:10:34 <Jim7J1AJH> Wow.  I was using Forth before you were born.
18:10:48 <Ray_work> 60 is the new 40.   50 is the new 35,   40 is the new 30, 30 is the new 25, 25 is the new 18.
18:10:59 <ayrnieu> yeah, that happens :-)
18:11:12 <Ray_work> Jim7J1AJH hehehehe
18:11:13 <segher> ray_work: but what is legal age now?
18:11:24 <Quartus> Legal for what?
18:11:29 <Ray_work> it's only illegal if you get caught.
18:11:34 <segher> no comments :-)
18:11:39 <segher> ah true
18:11:42 <LOOP-HOG> OLS?
18:11:54 <segher> linux symposium
18:12:07 <segher> ottawa
18:12:40 <LOOP-HOG> no
18:13:03 <LOOP-HOG> anybody going the the X-Prize Cup?
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18:13:30 <segher> well i could ask.  would be fun to meet up with other forth-junkies heh
18:13:55 <Ray_work> I wish I had a local forth friend.
18:15:20 <virl> dear forth friend...
18:15:21 <Ray_work> with all of the mil-complex here, you'd think we'd have every kind of users group, but alas the main thrust of the military worker here are assemblers.
18:15:56 <Ray_work> ex chevy manglers.
18:16:07 <Ray_work> Hi virl
18:16:27 <Ray_work> will you be my forth friend? ( how lame is that?!?)
18:17:01 <Quartus> Lame and disturbing.
18:17:22 <Ray_work> and disturbing, ya.
18:17:26 <LOOP-HOG> FORTH kicks ASS
18:17:48 <Ray_work> Forth kicks assembler.
18:18:11 <Ray_work> Assembler barely feels the kick and doesn't even respond.
18:19:14 <segher> forth _is_ an assembler
18:19:20 <ayrnieu> also forth definitions : kicks bl parse 2drop ; previous
18:19:22 <Ray_work> Forth regroups and includes the assembler.
18:19:44 <segher> it's also a high-level language though
18:19:57 <Ray_work> any level you want.
18:20:03 <ayrnieu> segher - FSVO 'level'.  Thinking Forth goes a bit into that.
18:20:22 <segher> aytnieu: you meant   previous DEFINITIONS
18:20:22 * Ray_work really needs to finish reading that TF.
18:20:23 <ayrnieu> I've only ever written much assembler in Quartus Forth ; nothing else has been specific enough.
18:20:40 <Ray_work> specific as in docs?
18:20:42 <ayrnieu> segher - not really, no.
18:20:58 <ayrnieu> ray - specific as in platform.
18:21:03 <Ray_work> oh
18:21:06 <segher> you want to leave FORTH as the curremt dict?  ouch.
18:21:18 <ayrnieu> segher - the caller can take care of itself.
18:21:24 <segher> heh
18:22:04 <segher> sure they _can_.  question is, is that a good ineface
18:22:06 <Ray_work> This caller is about to take care of a pizza if that truck doesn't hurry.
18:22:07 <segher> interface
18:22:29 <ayrnieu> segher - I couldn't say.  It's a good interface in some circumstances.  Here, there's no interface -- and no program.
18:22:44 <segher> note that you also didn't restore the previous current dict to what it was
18:22:56 <segher> should be fine then :-)
18:23:03 <ayrnieu> yes I did.  ALSO foo ... PREVIOUS
18:23:05 <Ray_work> did he call previous at the end of the def?
18:23:35 <segher> previous only restores the context, not the current
18:23:40 <ayrnieu> yes, I know.
18:23:45 <ayrnieu> but we already went over that.
18:23:45 <segher> okido
18:23:51 <segher> yeah
18:24:03 <Quartus> okido, the ancient Japanese art of agreement
18:24:03 <Ray_work> okay cool cuz I didn't know that.
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18:24:17 <Ray_work> Robert!
18:24:18 <segher> quartus: dutch actually
18:24:25 <Robert> Hey, Ray.
18:24:28 <Robert> And others.
18:24:35 <Ray_work> where ya been?
18:24:38 <Ray_work> still there?
18:24:40 <Quartus> There's a dutch version of Quartus Forth, but no okido. :)
18:24:41 <Ray_work> huh?
18:24:47 <Ray_work> when you gonna answer me.
18:24:49 <Robert> Yeah, I've been here.
18:24:54 <Ray_work> dont wait for the translation.
18:25:18 <segher> quartus: is there a "gvd" word?
18:25:27 <Quartus> If you want there to be.
18:25:34 <segher> please :-)
18:25:39 <Quartus> What's that?
18:25:50 <segher> short for "goddamn"
18:26:01 <Quartus> It's Forth, you can add it. :)
18:26:14 <Ray_work> That's in the error detection, is it not?
18:26:23 <segher> nah, it should be ther already, gvd!
18:27:15 * Ray_work checks on workers brb.
18:28:33 <Ray_work> They are right where they should be. In the parking lot, drinking beer. Good workers. Wait on that truck and accumulate the OT>
18:28:34 <Ray_work> .
18:29:14 <Ray_work> So long as they are not in the building, I can relax.
18:29:45 <Ray_work> last time someone babysat these workers, $60.00 came up missing. :(
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18:39:09 <Ray_work> the trucketh arrivED.
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18:47:34 <LOOP-HOG> have any of you people ever tried the WolfgangPuck self heating coffee?
18:47:48 <LOOP-HOG> It comes in a self heating can, you have to break a seal at the bottom of the can and it self heats
18:47:55 <LOOP-HOG> Must say that it tastes like ass
18:48:09 <Ray_work> not I, tho my interest i peaked. I really don't drink very much coffee.
18:48:11 <LOOP-HOG> sort of a petroleum aftertaste
18:49:21 <LOOP-HOG> "to prevent accidental skin or eye contact with heating matrials, do not alter or tamper with container. IN CASE OF ACCIDENTAL CONTACT FLUSH WITH WATER FOR 15 MINUTES
18:49:46 <LOOP-HOG> better off drinking cold coffee, or Mountain Dew
18:53:03 <Robert> That sounds very safe to humans and environment.
18:53:14 <Robert> Clearly a necessary part of modern life.
18:54:09 <LOOP-HOG> modern life would stop without, methinks
18:54:18 <LOOP-HOG> here I am promoting drug use
18:54:57 <Robert> Yeah. I'd say indefinite detention at a secret location is a fair treatment of you, as a prisoner in the War on Drugs.
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18:56:16 <LOOP-HOG> yeah
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18:57:46 <Downix> Can someone tell me where Sam Falvo is?
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18:59:04 <Ray_work> Downix: try #c4th-ot
18:59:09 <Robert> Downix: He's on Freenode, using the nick kc5tja
18:59:09 <Downix> thanks
18:59:20 <Ray_work> might not be there currently...
18:59:39 <Downix> Doing my bi-annual checkup
18:59:46 <Ray_work> :)
18:59:57 * Ray_work going home
19:00:08 --- quit: Ray_work ("User pushed the X - because it's Xtra, baby")
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19:01:24 <I440r> downix he still comes on this server but not in this channel
19:01:33 <Downix> *nods*
19:01:50 <I440r> tho he is definatly still welcome :)
19:01:57 <I440r> anyway time for zzz
19:02:01 <I440r> nite ppl
19:02:02 <Robert> Night
19:02:07 <Downix> night
19:02:09 * Robert should sleep too... 4am here.
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19:10:20 <LOOP-HOG> good night all
19:10:22 <LOOP-HOG> or not
19:10:26 <Downix> night
19:10:27 <Downix> hehe
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19:17:48 <LOOP-HOG> hi
19:19:27 <Downix> hey
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21:58:32 <LOOP-HOG> hi
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23:14:33 <LOOP-HOG> hi
23:15:28 <ASau> Privet!
23:16:10 <LOOP-HOG> what does that mean?
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23:17:04 <LOOP-HOG> hi
23:22:50 <ASau> LOOP-HOG: That means "hi".
23:24:19 <Quartus> It's Russian.
23:26:15 <LOOP-HOG> ok
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/06.07.03