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03:28:26 <kbmaniac> been looking for a gui IDE with forth syntax highlighting for Linux, seem to be scarse, Geany has one but does not work that well, any suggestions
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07:49:57 <dTal> kbmaniac: I couldn't find one either
07:50:03 <dTal> I don't think there is a really good one
07:50:13 <dTal> forth people don't value that sort of thing
07:50:43 <dTal> which is why there are only 8 of them
07:51:05 <dTal> [low number made up for effect]
08:07:40 <kbmaniac> rofl ... OK no problem, I am a bit of a softe and like the mouse, apparently latest version of geany supports Forth so will give it a spin
08:14:43 * tangentstorm is actually writing a syntax highlighter for retroforth right this very minute
08:15:35 <tangentstorm> there are retro highlighters for emacs and vim already... you'd want to change the vocabulary for standard forth or whatever you use of course.
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08:29:13 * kulp writes a syntax unhighlighter for colorForth
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08:46:41 <tangentstorm> http://i.imgur.com/BJjDoy9.png
08:51:41 <kulp> ooooh
08:51:57 <kulp> pretty
08:52:01 <tangentstorm> :)
08:52:24 <tangentstorm> the background is meant to show when the compiler is active or not, but i don't think it's anywhere close to accurate yet.
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19:15:53 <dto> schmx: ohai
19:16:15 <dto> schmx: one does not simply... walk into forth channel and find schmx 
19:16:22 <dto> :)
19:16:40 <RodgerTheGreat> evidently
19:17:20 <dto> good evening everyone.
19:25:49 <dto> RodgerTheGreat: i'm developing a forth dialect for visual games programming, on top of a lisp game engine
19:25:58 <dto> i've been reading more baout forth lately, so i thought i would stop in. 
19:26:04 <RodgerTheGreat> that's interesting
19:26:18 <RodgerTheGreat> when you say visual games programming do you mean programming visually or making games which are visual
19:26:50 <dto> a mix of text and visual programming, an integrated IDE.
19:27:06 <RodgerTheGreat> hunh
19:27:10 <dto> programmming visually.
19:27:17 <dto> sorry i'm not explaining this well.
19:27:30 <dto> http://blocky.io/ <--- this is the project i'm implementing forth on top of
19:30:03 <RodgerTheGreat> ah, another implementation of brett victor's ideas
19:31:16 <dto> you mean smalltalk?
19:32:01 <dto> or just the future-projection thing
19:32:11 <RodgerTheGreat> the latter
19:32:27 <dto> i'm not sure it'll be useful, but at least it only took two hours to add.
19:33:36 <dto> anyway, yeah i'd been a bit frustrated with developing the right syntax, and then i looked at forth again
19:33:42 <dto> and whipped out my copy of Thinking Forth
19:34:07 <dto> and got hacking: https://raw.github.com/dto/blocky/master/forth.lisp
19:34:17 <dto> RodgerTheGreat: what sort of stuff do you like to do with Forth?
19:34:29 <RodgerTheGreat> I write games, actually
19:34:32 <RodgerTheGreat> and compilers
19:35:19 <RodgerTheGreat> I mostly work with a VM I built which is sort of an idealized virtual game console
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19:35:37 <dto> (lightning talk video 5 is the one with the Smalltalk-style syntax
19:35:51 <RodgerTheGreat> lately I have also been writing a series of IDE things which I've been using to teach introductory programming classes
19:35:53 <dto> RodgerTheGreat: awesome :) the virtual game console is sort of how i think as well
19:36:07 <RodgerTheGreat> this is my system: https://github.com/JohnEarnest/Mako
19:36:22 <dto> looking.
19:37:03 <dto> i bet this would be awesome for raspberry pi
19:37:08 <dto> as a mini console
19:37:15 <dto> looks cool
19:37:33 <dto> ha, love the license
19:38:16 <RodgerTheGreat> some of my friends have had vague ideas about creating a raspi distro that boots into Mako, but it has not materialized yet
19:38:34 <RodgerTheGreat> this is one of the applications I am fairly proud of: https://github.com/JohnEarnest/Mako/tree/master/demos/Loko
19:39:06 <RodgerTheGreat> and this is one of the better original games: https://github.com/JohnEarnest/Mako/tree/master/games/Five
19:42:23 <dto> i was peeking into the Pong. i can't read forth well yet, 
19:42:42 <RodgerTheGreat> Pong is one of the first forth programs I wrote
19:43:01 <dto> ooh logo
19:43:02 <RodgerTheGreat> it is pretty terrifying and I have left it that way largely as a museum piece
19:43:42 <RodgerTheGreat> dto: I'm not aware of any other logo implementations written in Forth
19:43:47 <RodgerTheGreat> Loko may be a first
19:46:15 <RodgerTheGreat> I guess it's sort of the opposite of you writing a forth in lisp
19:46:40 <dto> yes!
19:46:41 <dto> :)
19:51:38 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm also tinkering with a game where you write forth code to control an adventurer exploring dungeons
19:52:56 <dto> woah.
19:53:15 <RodgerTheGreat> here, I'll take some screenshots
19:53:22 <RodgerTheGreat> it's not quite ready to push yet
19:53:29 <dto> okay.
19:58:12 <RodgerTheGreat> http://i.imgur.com/aogxtdj.png
19:58:20 <RodgerTheGreat> http://i.imgur.com/7JCIIQ5.png
19:58:25 <RodgerTheGreat> http://i.imgur.com/4Urr7fP.png
19:59:24 <dto> ooh so cute!
19:59:58 <RodgerTheGreat> and the title screen: http://i.imgur.com/awcNxsi.png
20:00:22 <kulp> i'll definitely play that :D
20:00:28 <kulp> well, once my video game vow is done
20:00:56 <dto> nice! do you do the art?
20:01:00 <RodgerTheGreat> yeah
20:02:55 <dto> looks good.
20:03:01 <RodgerTheGreat> it's a good start
20:08:11 <dto> i'm hoping to make a very user-friendly forth that feels like MIT Scratch, but with forth words instead of widgets that mirror smalltalk source calls
20:08:38 <dto> pop up documentation, etc
20:08:56 <RodgerTheGreat> that would be atypical for forth, but quite spiffy
20:12:17 <RodgerTheGreat> kulp: so what is your "video game vow"?
20:15:08 <kulp> RodgerTheGreat: i vowed not to play video games till i get my pilot's license
20:15:11 <kulp> i've been dragging my feet :/
20:15:21 <RodgerTheGreat> how long is that going to take you?
20:15:23 <kulp> i'll probably just end up losing the video game habit, which i can't say is all bad
20:15:28 <kulp> could be as little as two weeks
20:15:35 <kulp> but weather and studying have to fall in line
20:15:43 <RodgerTheGreat> well it is plausible that this game will be playable in two weeks
20:15:50 <RodgerTheGreat> no promises though
20:15:51 <kulp> \o/
20:15:52 <kulp> hehe
20:15:56 <kulp> i look forward to it
20:16:10 <kulp> are you going to write the levels in forth too
20:17:21 <RodgerTheGreat> well, the levels are a grid of tile data
20:18:35 <RodgerTheGreat> currently you can walk around, there are keys which open doors, gems to collect for points and enemies wandering around that you must kill
20:19:21 <RodgerTheGreat> I may add a few more game elements
20:20:03 <RodgerTheGreat> so the challenge is both writing a program to get through all the levels and to do it with as little code as possible
20:20:51 <RodgerTheGreat> it's sort of difficult to write a puzzle game which isn't insanely hard for a program to solve
20:25:02 <kulp> indeed
20:25:28 <kulp> better you than me !
20:26:07 <RodgerTheGreat> so far my strategy has been mainly focusing less on creating puzzle elements and more of things which can be exploited to improve your odds of success
20:26:09 <RodgerTheGreat> tradeoffs
20:26:28 <RodgerTheGreat> like picking up a gem heals you a bit, so you don't want to get them before you need them if there are enemies
20:27:06 <RodgerTheGreat> and you don't strictly have to kill enemies but it may be a better idea than allowing them to corner you
20:27:20 <RodgerTheGreat> we'll see how well that works out
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20:28:48 <RodgerTheGreat> and then naturally only being able to observe things directly adjacent to you means that exploration/pathfinding optimally can be sort of tricky and might involve several approaches to storing information
20:33:41 <RodgerTheGreat> I'm not sure how the enemies should move yet
20:33:51 <RodgerTheGreat> probably some sort of deterministic pattern
20:33:57 <RodgerTheGreat> like wall following perhaps
20:34:17 <RodgerTheGreat> making them more predictable means you can exploit their movement mechanics
20:34:27 <RodgerTheGreat> assuming you have enough information
20:35:12 <RodgerTheGreat> I thought about having pushable blocks but I know from experience how much of a pain in the ass it is to write a sokoban solver
20:35:26 <RodgerTheGreat> monstrously complicated and if I recall correctly NP
20:36:17 <RodgerTheGreat> another idea I had was torches which illuminate everything for some number of turns and can be stored for later
20:36:58 <RodgerTheGreat> that's sort of complicated to deal with though
20:37:03 <RodgerTheGreat> kulp: any thoughts?
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20:54:41 <kulp> ah sorry, watching a subtitled film and building work code at the same time
20:54:42 * kulp reads
20:55:32 <kulp> oh wow i didn't realise it was going to have limited vision too
20:55:35 <kulp> that sounds quite intense
20:56:01 <kulp> i assume that means you don't write the programs in one go ?
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21:14:31 <RodgerTheGreat> kulp: well I figure that you'll give it a spin, make it to some level, die and then iteratively improve your program
21:14:54 <RodgerTheGreat> you can test on just one particular level or run the game from the beginning
21:15:18 <RodgerTheGreat> so you can play in a couple different ways
21:15:23 <RodgerTheGreat> you can try to just make it through
21:15:28 <RodgerTheGreat> you can try to minimize your code
21:15:38 <RodgerTheGreat> you can try to maximize your score
21:15:44 <RodgerTheGreat> you can just golf a particular level
21:23:25 <kulp> oh i see
21:23:54 <RodgerTheGreat> what were you imagining? More of an adventure game than a dungeon crawler?
21:23:56 <kulp> well that's very forth-like, anyway, the iteration
21:23:59 <kulp> i just don't think in forth yet
21:24:15 <RodgerTheGreat> there's a book for that
21:24:22 <kulp> well i was imagining more of a sokoban i suppose
21:24:37 <kulp> yeah i have thinking forth and a few other good ones
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21:24:40 <RodgerTheGreat> this is sorta like sokoban
21:24:40 <kulp> i just haven't read them :(
21:25:02 <RodgerTheGreat> thinking forth is really a fun read
21:25:07 <RodgerTheGreat> not a slog at all
21:25:17 <kulp> yeah i mean i did get a few chapters in and it was not painful
21:25:22 <kulp> i just forget to read things once i put them down
21:25:33 <kulp> bad habit of staring at the computer all the time
21:28:12 <RodgerTheGreat> oh, had another idea for an element: spiked tiles that hurt when you walk over them. Sometimes mandatory, meaning if your exploration code involves a lot of backtracking you're gonna die
21:29:03 <RodgerTheGreat> you can make a lot of little things that reward or punish risk-averse behavior with something like that
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21:44:11 <tangentstorm> game's looking good, RodgerTheGreat 
21:44:18 <RodgerTheGreat> thanks
21:45:37 <RodgerTheGreat> any thoughts on the puzzles, as mentioned above?
21:46:43 <tangentstorm> not sure
21:47:13 <tangentstorm> i've written a sokoban style game
21:47:23 <RodgerTheGreat> me too
21:47:26 <RodgerTheGreat> in forth even
21:47:27 <tangentstorm> it uses pushing and pulling
21:47:47 <RodgerTheGreat> really easy to get stuck in sokoban style games
21:47:53 <tangentstorm> instead of locking the thing in place because you can't pull it, you drag squares to matching-colored tiles
21:48:20 <RodgerTheGreat> hm
21:49:07 <tangentstorm> http://tetraminex.com/episode/00/
21:49:13 <tangentstorm> kind of just a prototype
21:50:43 <tangentstorm> the lead character will appear as the little DOS smiley face character in text-mode in my forth game... ernie goldsmile in the forth dimension :)
21:53:04 <RodgerTheGreat> interesting
21:53:18 <RodgerTheGreat> the control scheme takes some getting used to
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22:00:10 <RodgerTheGreat> to be continued
22:01:08 <RodgerTheGreat> did you ever play the game "3 in Three"?
22:02:55 <tangentstorm> sorry was afk
22:03:02 <tangentstorm> no, i've not heard of it
22:03:26 <tangentstorm> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3_in_Three
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22:03:54 <RodgerTheGreat> used to have it for one of my old macs
22:03:57 <RodgerTheGreat> that game ruled
22:04:20 <RodgerTheGreat> the storytelling style of your game gives me a little 3 in Three vibe
22:05:07 <tangentstorm> haha it looks awesome : http://www.thefoolandhismoney.com/03-in-three/screen-shots.htm
22:05:46 <RodgerTheGreat> if you can find an emulator or something you've gotta try it
22:06:25 <tangentstorm> The story's kind of the main problem with that game. I'd like to find a way to make it not get in the way of the action.
22:06:35 <RodgerTheGreat> hm
22:07:08 <RodgerTheGreat> it's a little intrusive but I felt like it added some charm
22:07:10 <tangentstorm> I have a whole storyline written out, with characters for each of the tetris pieces... also aliens and time travel involved....
22:07:46 <RodgerTheGreat> I love it when games set up your expectations in one way and then suddenly break away from them
22:08:00 <tangentstorm> i had planned to have robots in the tetamino mines that you could control with a progam
22:08:10 <RodgerTheGreat> the "twist" in Nelson Tethers: Puzzle Agent is a good example
22:08:19 <tangentstorm> don't tell me!
22:08:24 <RodgerTheGreat> oh, I wouldn't
22:08:26 <tangentstorm> i'm about halfway through the game :)
22:08:34 <RodgerTheGreat> well then you've almost encountered it
22:08:36 <tangentstorm> been a while since i played it
22:08:54 <RodgerTheGreat> without spoiling anything it takes place when you revisit the hotel
22:09:08 <RodgerTheGreat> hopefully that won't diminish the surprise too much
22:09:15 <tangentstorm> speaking of games... i need to make a game for january.
22:09:24 <RodgerTheGreat> do it in forth
22:09:42 <tangentstorm> doing a game-a-month-in-2013 thing, and was hoping to have my stuff ready by end of the month, but am obviously running late.
22:10:09 <RodgerTheGreat> I've thought about doing something like that but having hard deadlines totally stresses me out
22:10:15 <tangentstorm> i was thinking i might just make a same game or something for this one.
22:10:57 <RodgerTheGreat> you could have nega-blocks made of antimatter which cancel out tetromino pieces
22:11:51 <RodgerTheGreat> time for me to hit the hay
22:11:59 <tangentstorm> for tetraminex, i had thought about adding a rule where if you get 10 in a row (which i beileve is the well-size in tetris) they disappear
22:12:00 <tangentstorm> seeay
22:12:02 <tangentstorm> seeya
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