I'm thinking cognitive structures more than a semantic viewpoint. Certainty comes into play as well. This doesn't invalidate what you're saying - and invalidation isn't what I'm striving for. Rather, I'm putting it in a broader context beyond the semantics and into subcultures arguing over "is/isn't", "better/worse", "exist/not exist"... My take is more of a sociological pov, noticing people movements and such. On an individual basis? believe/abelieve what you like :) -- In short, what looks like Apologetics for atheism from an outsiders POV, likely _is_ apologetics, behaviorally speaking. Apologetics was once the realm of religions only but has extended itself as an expression methodology into atheism: the social movement, which is one of the things that gives some of the trappings and appearances of traditional religions. --