It's honestly, too may words to attempt to prove what should be a simple point. Perhaps utilizing existing fallacies - there are many to choose from. They are the List of Mortal Sins not to be committed by a modern Logician. Even dipping a toe into the logic side and use the nifty symbolic language, while requiring a slight bit of effort on the part of an uninitiated reader, would perhaps be a step into the Universal. Also, the initial tone is sarcastic and bitter and not engaging to the reader, at least this one. Granted references are nice - I do like references. I often skip straight to the end after reading the introduction and go to the conclusion and then the references, if any, to get a sense of the references. I haven't had coffee yet and this is the first post on my list so the best I can do is what I normally do when I speed read: I produce first impressions. First impressions are not entirely favorable. It has a sense of "The lady doth protest too much, methinks." [1] Now, this is not my final answer. It _could_ stand as a final answer but I am willing to give it a look upon awakening. But I wanted you to know that it will not be an unbiased analysis but I will give it an attempt because we are friends. I don't usually read long articles or watch long videos that are attempting to convince me of what should be a simple enough idea. To me, if you wish to believe that those who consider these historical figures anything _but_ Atheist despite the the efforts of historians whose whole careers are generally to present as unbiased opinion of history as possible that state the contrary to the opinion of this article, are correct due to an argument you would already be inclined to believe because it is already favorable to your position as it exists at present, I have no problem with that. But I'm a bit more skeptical than this, primarily to my bias, more information of which can be found in the referenced work of Shakespeare [1]. Now I shall have some coffee smile emoticon I hope you give my first analysis due consideration. === I have coffee in hand, still not ready. I am getting the sense of being accosted by a convert to a religion who has intense supporting documentation as to why their religion would be most suitable for me to adopt for myself. You are seeking cause-effect. I do not believe either religion or atheism is the causation of these men's actions. This is the issue I have that goes deeper than the arguments you and Michael Sherlock, who is not so much an atheist but an anti-theist. Is belief a valid primary cause? Is belief provable? [does a person hold a stated belief?] These footings are sandy upon which such arguments ultimately are based. An initial flaw in logic can lead one to strange places indeed. In any case, I have given my first impressions and my biases. I think it was fair that I did so. In exchange, I would appreciate a response as to why it should not appear that my Shakespearean reference is correct, rather than "Why aren't you agreeing with me despite x, y, z?" I think that is a better way to hold a conversation. I'm not much for debate, but I do like conversations. ==